The incoming deterioration of item progression and build diversity when everything is simplified?

Let me explain graphically why people complain about crit in endgame.

RT
Cost
----------|
DPS
------------------|

Crit
Cost
--------------------|
DPS
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------|

If you need further clarification please let me know.

While this is somewhat right, it is also wrong.

RT is not a build.
RT is a cheap solution for a not-so-difficult-to-solve problem.
So why on earth should RT users get equal damage?

"

lukeiy wrote:

Let me explain graphically why people complain about crit in endgame.

RT
Cost
----------|
DPS
------------------|

Crit
Cost
--------------------|
DPS
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------|

If you need further clarification please let me know.

That's right, but let me explain entry/mid level map builds since Elreon:

RT
Cost
----------|
DPS
--------------------|

Crit
Cost
-----|
DPS
--------------------|

"

JahIthBer89 wrote:

Preaches build diversity.

Wants crit to remain far and away the best way to build a character.

Cool story.

Crit should always the endgame to strive for, its pretty simple really, and he even explains why.

To me the problem isnt crit itself, its crit weapons, or more specific, daggers, a crit dagger out performs swords and axes by a massive degree, and it should NOT be that way.

"

lukeiy wrote:

Let me explain graphically why people complain about crit in endgame.

RT
Cost
----------|
DPS
------------------|

Crit
Cost
--------------------|
DPS
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------|

If you need further clarification please let me know.

Except crit gear is way more than only twice the cost of RT gear. Make it 10 times more.

"

MasterAxe wrote:

To me the problem isnt crit itself, its crit weapons, or more specific, daggers, a crit dagger out performs swords and axes by a massive degree, and it should NOT be that way.

GGG decided on a couple ideas for their game.

All Classes can be built for whatever a player wants.
Damage can be drastically increased by "more" Multipliers.
Skills and Support gems can be combined with almost no limitations.
Weapons have access to the "same" affixes.
Affixes determine 90% of the strength of a weapon.

If this set of ideas is not drastically changed/restricted, the following will always be true.

Those wo stack more multipliers do more damage (with crit being the biggest multiplier).
This kills all Blood Magic, Resolute Technique etc. It also kills all support gems without damage, like Knockback, Blind, Stun, Life/mana leech...

When all weapons can do the same damage, the one with the highest base crit and/or best passives will prevail.
There's no point in using a 550 DpS Sword/Axe/Mace when you can have a 550 DpS Dagger. This would not be true if a Dagger could not use Melee Physical Damage, Melee Splash, Multistrike, Faster Attacks... But he can.

On top of this, Players have (not irrationally at all) decided that they want to get as much "bang for the buck" as they can get.
When block let's you survive where twohanders don't there's no point in twohanders.
When Armor fails in the extreme situations you need it the most, there's no point in Armor.
When you can avoid tons of damage by "not being close", but still have the same lines of defense, there's no point in melee.

This leads to, and there's no way around it:

Build for crit.
Be ranged.
Stack crazy defenses like Block/Spellblock+Acrobatics+IC+Evasion.
Use some absurd AoE uber damage skill (the best the current meta allows).

This is no "build diversity", in a game with the most "build possibilities" I've ever seen.
Unfortunatly, this is a vicious cycle.

What would you prefer?
Limited possibilies? A Ranger may only use bows and certain skills/supports? A Shadow may only use Daggers/Claws etc?
Or keep the endless possibilities, fully knowing that some are better than others?

Someone is confusing "having a goal" with "having diversity"

In an ideal world with maximum diversity any reasonable combination of stats results in roughly the same output.

eg Crit Builds and RT builds have the same clear speed (performance)

This is not in opposition to goals. It is just the presence of multiple potential goals. Much like how in theory there are currently spell and attack builds with the same potential performance.

the presence of Acuity is a symptom of a lack of diversity. Each "BiS" item or build REDUCES diversity within the game, it provides a goal but it means everyone is striving for the same goal. Ideally there would be multiple possible "Acuities" to attain, each representing the pinnacle of a potential build and each with equivalent performance.

The introduction of a combination of limitations (Multistrike = X only, splash = Y only, Spectral throw = Z only etc) and potential performance equivalent builds (RT = Crit = Spell = Trap = Totem = Summon etc) would actually INCREASE build diversity exponentially while also increasing depth of character design and providing more meaningful choices ot the player.

On Daggers: Daggers get both DPS styats (APS, Crit Chance). Ideally Crit Damage should be added as weapon base option. Ideally daggers should NOT get both DPS stats when other weapon types only get one. Especially when weapon affixes and flat damage bonuses are not APS normalized. That is what is causing runaway dagger DPS.

The root cause of Dagger imbalance is not that base crit is too good (that is a problem, but it is a tangential problem) it is that a weapon gets Crit + APS with no penalty to damage (free DPS and free crit damage). This is a core issue with intrinsic weapon stats as a whole.

If +Damage affixes / bonuses were APS normalized daggers would lose 40% of their DPS lead.
If weapons had intrinsic crit multiplier Daggers would not be instantly BiS (because tehycould have a lower multiplier, but if the current pattern is to be any indication they'd probably also get a gigh multiplier)
If Crit Multiplier as a stat wasn't relegated SPECIFICALLY to dagger nodes in bulk daggers would not be the best weapon.
If other weapons had significant +Increased Damage daggers would not be the best weapon.

If it was up to me I'd be overhauling the weapon system. I'd be fixing the underlying mechanical issues and tuning from there. I'd also be increasing restrictions and pushing for better balance and cohesive themes among weapon types.

"

Peterlerock wrote:

Those wo stack more multipliers do more damage (with crit being the biggest multiplier).

Actually this is wrong, while you reach around 700% inc crit multi, you reach around ~900%inc elemental weapon dmg with GG CoE Gear

Whatever.