Spell Damage + CoE + HoA interaction

Hi all,

I can't seem to find anything unambiguous on the Wiki about the interaction between Increased Spell Damage modifiers, Crown of Eyes, and Herald of Ash.

As a working example, say I have 100 base pDPS, 1 attack/second, 50% ISD, and HoA active.

Clearly, with CoE I get 100 * 150% = 150 pDPS after ISD is applied.
Total damage: 150 phys, 0 fire.

HoA adds 15% of physical damage as fire damage, so,
Total damage: 150 phys, 22.5 fire.

Question 1: How is ISD now applied to the fire portion? Is this applied to the already increased phys damage (a), or before (b)?

(a) Total damage: 150 phys, 22.5 * 150% = 33.75 fire.
(b) Total damage: 150 phys, (100 * 15%) * 150% = 22.5 fire damage.

Regardless, say the total damage is X > 100, and I hit a mob with 100 HP and 0% fire resistance. My overkill damage is (X-100) = B > 0. Say the HoA is level 1.

Question 2: Are surrounding mobs now ignited for a total of B burning damage (a), or B * 150% by application of ISD (b)?

Thanks in advance for any answers :)

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Vipermagi wrote:

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acme_myst wrote:

Clearly, with CoE I get 100 * 150% = 150 pDPS after ISD is applied.
Total damage: 150 phys, 0 fire.

HoA adds 15% of physical damage as fire damage, so,
Total damage: 150 phys, 22.5 fire.

Well, no. Damage Based On and Conversion are calculated before Damage multipliers.

100 base Physical Damage, 15% Phys as Fire:
100 base Phys
15 base Fire (from Phys)

Increased Spell Damage becomes Increased Attack Damage. Everything is Attack Damage.
100 * 1.5 = 150 Phys
15 * 1.5 = 22.5, rounds to 22 Fire

So, answer (b) to question 1, that's what I thought, thanks.

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Vipermagi wrote:

There are four mutually exclusive Damage types: Attack, Spell, Damage over Time and Secondary.
Ignite deals Fire Damage over Time, so it cannot possibly be affected by Increased Spell Damage Converted through Crown of Eyes, because that turns into Increased Attack Damage.

This doesn't seem quite right, as you're implying that ISD no longer applies to spells. The post-patch wording is

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Coe wrote:

Increases and Reductions to Spell Damage also apply to Attacks.

Since HoA is clearly a spell, and the source (I'd say) of the burning damage, can anyone confirm that this does not work?

Ok, I see what you're saying. However, that makes this answer a bit ambiguous:

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Mark_GGG wrote:

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TheRhythm wrote:

Does the ignite respect its source like a normal ignite when it comes to scaling?

Yes

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TheRhythm wrote:

If the Overkilling damage was from a Bear Trap, would the ignite scale with Trap Damage? If the last hit was a Puncture, would the ignite scale with projectile damage? With melee spash; scale with AoE?

No in all cases because the source of the ignite is not the skill that caused the overkill, it's Herald of Ash.

Together with

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Mark_GGG wrote:

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raics wrote:

It will, minion damage bonus is a bonus to all damage, including DoT.

Similarly, bonus on trap and mine gem appears as a generic damage multiplier on summoned minion and will also apply both to initial damage and burn from ignite.

It's well known that bonuses appear on minions like that and apply to all relevant actions, you don't really need a specific proof of this.

P.S.
don't get too attached to that mine/trap trick, it will get removed in next patch.

Posting to clarify that raics is correct. The ignite is fire damage over time dealt by a minion. That's a subset of damage dealt by a minion, and thus minion damage applies.

Hence my point that, mutatis mutandis, this argument should equally hold when the source is a Spell. Where is my reasoning off here?

your reasoning is off here, Vimermagi has alredy explained(twice):

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Vipermagi wrote:

There are four mutually exclusive Damage types: Attack, Spell, Damage over Time and Secondary.
Ignite deals Fire Damage over Time, so it cannot possibly be affected by Increased Spell Damage Converted through Crown of Eyes, because that turns into Increased Attack Damage.

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Vipermagi wrote:

Damage over Time is never Spell Damage, and it's never Attack Damage either. It does not apply..

so I will say it for the third time :) , dots are never supported by spell/attack modifiers, it is a different base damage type and these are mutually exclusive

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Ludvator wrote:

your reasoning is off here, Vimermagi has alredy explained:

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Vipermagi wrote:

There are four mutually exclusive Damage types: Attack, Spell, Damage over Time and Secondary.
Ignite deals Fire Damage over Time, so it cannot possibly be affected by Increased Spell Damage Converted through Crown of Eyes, because that turns into Increased Attack Damage.

dots are never supported by spell/attack modifiers, it is a different base damage type and these are mutaully exclusive

Yes, I understand this argument. The thing is, if that holds true, why can I do this?

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Mark_GGG wrote:

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raics wrote:

....

Posting to clarify that raics is correct. The ignite is fire damage over time dealt by a minion(spell). That's a subset of damage dealt by a minion(spell), and thus minion(spell) damage applies.

Edit 1: Why doesn't this forum have strikethrough tags? But, *shrug*

Edit 2:

Honestly, I'm not trying to be stubborn on purpose, but from the Wiki:

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Wiki wrote:

The % increased Damage, % increased Spell Damage, % increased Fire Damage, % increased Elemental Damage modifiers and Minion Damage gem scale ignite damage twice:[2]

The damage of the hit/spell is increased, resulting in higher ignite base damage.
The resulting ignite effect is scaled again by the same modifiers.

The reference there is the above quote by Mark_GGG.

Note how ISD and Minion Damage are in the same list, which I'm reading as being applied to the Ignite a second time due to applying to the source of the damage. Also again, as quoted above in an earlier post, it was confirmed that HoA respects its source for ignite scaling purposes in the normal fashion.

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Vipermagi wrote:

Herald of Ash definitely is a Spell. That does not mean it deals any Spell Damage; that is entirely unrelated. See also: Detonate Dead, Searing Bond. Heck, every Ranged Attack Totem.

..or minion..

___

if you summon a minion (using spell), and the minion ignites an enemy with his attack or spell, then the DoT will be icreased by minion damage modifiers. Minion damage is a general modifier so affects all four damage types minion can deal. However, if the modifiers was "minion attack(or spell) damage", it would not apply to other three types of his damage

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Vipermagi wrote:

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acme_myst wrote:

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Mark_GGG wrote:

Posting to clarify that raics is correct. The ignite is fire damage over time dealt by a minion(spell). That's a subset of damage dealt by a minion(spell), and thus minion(spell) damage applies.

That is absolutely not what Mark said though. Source for that quote.

Yeah, sorry. I maybe should have mentioned that the parenthesized, underscored parts of a quote I previously posted in its original form were added by myself.

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Vipermagi wrote:

Nowhere does he combine the words "Spell" and "Minion". 'Minion' is a subtype, 'Spell' is a base type. They cannot be compared, and are not interchangable.


Read his following post. That is one of the many places where Mark has said that Attack/Spell Damage can never apply to Damage over Time.

For convenience of other readers, this is the relevant part of the quote you're referring to:

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Mark_GGG wrote:

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PeachieMark wrote:

By this logic, does trap damage scale ignite in an Ele prolif fire trap build?

Yes.

There are (since the DoT refactor) four sources of damage:
1) Attack Damage (includes any attack-only modifiers such as melee) - always has base damage come from a weapon.
2) Spell Damage. Base comes from the skill, affected by spell modifiers.
3) "Secondary" Damage. Not affected by spell or attack modifiers, but still hits. Used for stuff like the explosion from Infernal Blow.
4) Damage over time. Not affected by spell or attack modifiers (because it's a separate class of damage), but anything that cares about the type of damage (fire, elemental, chaos, etc), or what deals it (trap, minion) will apply.

Specifically point 4 here is rather explicit about DoT not being affected by ISD modifiers. This in turn means that a more unambiguous answer in the HoA thread would have been

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Mark_GGG wrote:

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TheRhythm wrote:

Does the ignite respect its source like a normal ignite when it comes to scaling?

Yes, so the ignite cannot be scaled here by modifiers to its source.
...

Italics my addition ;)

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Vipermagi wrote:

The wiki is flatout wrong when it says Spell Damage multiplies Ignite. It's an unofficial source, and tbh it's wrong with fair frequency. This is one such case.

That is of course possible, although there is a somewhat more complicated possibility that allows us both to be correct, and makes Mark_GGG's answers and statements on the Wiki more internally consistent. Specifically:

[hypothesizing]
- On overkill, HoA procs a Status Ailment, viz. Ignite.
- Ignite, on being created, checks its source for relevant modifiers, e.g. ISD, IBD, or IMD, and uses it to determine the magnitude of the Burning damage it will deal.
- The status ailment Ignite then causes Damage over Time to be applied to whatever mob it is active on. This is a type of Fire Damage Over Time that is indeed not itself influenced by any modifiers applicable to the source, but can be changed by IDoT modifiers.
[/hypothesizing]