Barrage CoC Fireball Ranger (No, not the usual, HC Viable, no Lag, Teamplayer)

In general, the damage reflect threshold for elemental reflect to be a danger is much higher than that of physical damage because of resistances.

You really aren't doing too much elemental damage here. I would imagine you are safe (assuming capped resistances).

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Asidra wrote:

In general, the damage reflect threshold for elemental reflect to be a danger is much higher than that of physical damage because of resistances.

You really aren't doing too much elemental damage here. I would imagine you are safe (assuming capped resistances).

well, i dont have capped res, thats n1. im broke :P

secondly, reflect is not specifically dangerous when just single, but it can turn dangerous when running an ele weakness map, or a -max res map. sure, you could avoid those maps, but its better not to be in danger at those maps.

furthermore, reflect isnt the only issue, its also lmp itself, and combining lmp with chain is really laggy. I tried it, a couple of times, and when im farming levels, sure, but when im working my way through stuff, rather not, its just not needed and provides an unneccesary risk

I don't know what to tell you dude. I have a 69 COC Ranger that uses Fireballs and Ice Spear (also nodes into spell damage and spell crit). And I have a level 81 crit Glacial Hammer Templar that does a mega ton of a ice damage. In both cases, I can safely attack into elemental reflect with no issues. Really, the only toons that seem to have problems are Discharge builds, or Windripper elemental crit builds.

In terms of the elemental damage that can be done in the game, you are really doing very little. Keep in mind, I am not saying you don't do good damage or that you clear slowly. Just a statement of fact that there are a ton of builds of all classes capable of outputting much more elemental damage than you who don't kill themselves versus elemental reflect. Just look at all of the elemental buzzsaw builds, for example.


Think about it - you are just level 60. Reflect is always 18% - it never changes. There is no difference between doing 10k damage at 60 versus 10k damage at 90 in terms of the damage being directed back at you. But those 90 level mobs have way more HP - if you are doing the same damage at 90 as you are at 60, you will have huge problems. And if you can survive reflect then, you can survive it now.

Also you keep talking about lag. I don't really find any lag with LMP fireball...

Right now, all you really have is a completely sub-optimal CoC build. If you enjoy it, great. I hope you have a blast playing it. But the build could really be better - even while accomplishing your same overall goals.

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Asidra wrote:

I don't know what to tell you dude. I have a 69 COC Ranger that uses Fireballs and Ice Spear (also nodes into spell damage and spell crit). And I have a level 81 crit Glacial Hammer Templar that does a mega ton of a ice damage. In both cases, I can safely attack into elemental reflect with no issues. Really, the only toons that seem to have problems are Discharge builds, or Windripper elemental crit builds.

In terms of the elemental damage that can be done in the game, you are really doing very little. Keep in mind, I am not saying you don't do good damage or that you clear slowly. Just a statement of fact that there are a ton of builds of all classes capable of outputting much more elemental damage than you who don't kill themselves versus elemental reflect. Just look at all of the elemental buzzsaw builds, for example.


Think about it - you are just level 60. Reflect is always 18% - it never changes. There is no difference between doing 10k damage at 60 versus 10k damage at 90 in terms of the damage being directed back at you. But those 90 HP mobs have way more HP - if you are doing the same damage at 90 as you are at 60, you will have huge problem. And if you can survive reflect then, you can survive it now.

Also you keep talking about lag. I don't really find any lag with LMP fireball...

Right now, all you really have is a completely sub-optimal CoC build. If you enjoy it, great. I hope you have a blast playing it. But the build could really be better - even while accomplishing your same overall goals.

So why isnt CoC normally considered hardcore viable then? And Ele buzzsaw Can actually hurt themselves through reflect, the problem isnt single reflect, mostly, its the fact that sometimes, mobs come in big density, which will hurt you a lot more than else, the map has ele reflect too, or ele weakness, minus max res, any kind of combination which would essentially give you a double reflect count easily kills you.

Ohh, an ele reflect death: http://www.twitch.tv/thegreatone/c/2341840

Look how fragile even a non-full ele build is, to ele reflect: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-9KM9bSYe6Q

I cant quickly find out any other death videos on this, I know Pulp died, playing Ele buzzsaw, I thought that was ele reflect, but i cant recall, since he didnt have the stream on, but I thought something was mentioned like that. I cant see how else he would have died, except for thorns or Corrupting blood, which as I also said are two reasons i use more damage per hit, killing yourself through those mods are pretty common too. Ele reflect death is real. That you dont die to it, you might eventually, but i dont want to risk it, which basically is the point of this thread. Consider im not using any leech at all, and i dont have more regen than just heart of the oak and potions.

No lag? Maybe not yourself, but the party really suffers from it. I admit, i can run any kind of CoC setups, but when i run with another CoC, no matter what i do, i lag out, which is the fact that your client needs to receive that mass of data, which totally freaks out your client.

Lag: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S51-NyHlsDc
Again, this is in a party, which greatly decreases the threshold for lag.

Also, ive tested with arc, and combining arc and fireball with chain, is a better option overall then to combine with LMP, due to the fact that arc doesnt scale off lmp, but does off of chain.

EDIT: you say discharge is susceptible to ele reflect. why isnt fireball that then? arent they essentially the same?

Discharge's damage in CoC builds optimized around it get disgustingly high. Fireball cannot compare (most things not starting with low life can't).

So here's the thing - and let's just take Chain, Arc, And Fireball being used on your Barrage.

Arcs caps out (assuming nothing over-leveling it) at gem level 16 of having 5 chains. So you get 6 Arcs, for 600% damage. By adding chain, you get 2 more at a 50% damage penalty to all of them. So now you get 8 Arcs at 50% damage 400% damage. Sub Optimal decision making.

Fireball explodes on impact for AOE damage equal to the on hit damage. Thus, Fireball literally gets over half of it's damage output from the explosion. But it can't explode and then chain - it only explodes at the end. So you are cutting that explosion benefit in half even though it doesn't get the benefit of chaining. Sub optimal decision making.

Each Barrage Arrow has 40% damage effectiveness. Chain drops it down to 20%. Yes, it shoots 4x. But do you know how armour works in this game? It scales downwards in effectiveness as damage goes up. It's the reason high armor is great for a ton of monkeys beating on you, but much less effective against Kole. So by taking what are individually already weak hits, and making them weaker - you lose a ton of unnecessary damage to enemy Armor. The whole here is not the sum of the parts. Sub Optimal decision making.

Most people try and get more damage, not less. However, even in the event your purpose was to keep damage down because of reflect, you are going about it completely the wrong way. That should be done in the tree, because there if you take damage off you get the benefit of more nodes for more defense. Poor gem selection takes damage away while giving you nothing in return.

Scared about reflect? Take crit multi off the tree. Grab enough Aura reduction nodes to use the Purity of the elements you are using. Travel to Elemental Adaptation. Carry a Ruby Flask to use when elemental reflect is around. Some combo of these choices with more optimal Gem links will lead to a toon that would greatly outperform where you are currently headed with yours.

I am not sure what to say about LMP - it's ideal for your build for so many reasons. I know it doesn't effect my PC, either my LMP or other people's.

Sidra already touched on most of the comments I was going to make, so I'll just add:

Chain by itself really only plays well with Split Arrow, Arc and Ethereal Knives.

Any of the Projectile spells like Fireball really do better by combining Chain with LMP. Fireball has never bothered me on other people's characters. The only spells I really don't like grouping with are Discharge and Arctic Breath. If you're worried about making it HC viable*, Arctic Armour will absorb all those millions of little hits.

*I seem to be missing where your defense is coming from. I'd assume perma-flasking and auras, but you have very little increased Evasion and no increased ES nodes and not enough resists to drop Purity. I don't think this is going to end well.

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Asidra wrote:

Discharge's damage in CoC builds optimized around it get disgustingly high. Fireball cannot compare (most things not starting with low life can't).

So here's the thing - and let's just take Chain, Arc, And Fireball being used on your Barrage.

Arcs caps out (assuming nothing over-leveling it) at gem level 16 of having 5 chains. So you get 6 Arcs, for 600% damage. By adding chain, you get 2 more at a 50% damage penalty to all of them. So now you get 8 Arcs at 50% damage 400% damage. Sub Optimal decision making.

do you forget chain also gets damage increase over level? you only need 600/8=75% damage from a single arc to compare. however, at lvl 20, chain gives an increase of 38%, counting up to an 88% total so making an arc do 704% damage. Suboptimal indeed

not only this, but, chain, triggers CoC to a max of 12 times with barrage, lmp only 6, 12 arcs is better than 6 right?

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Fireball explodes on impact for AOE damage equal to the on hit damage. Thus, Fireball literally gets over half of it's damage output from the explosion. But it can't explode and then chain - it only explodes at the end. So you are cutting that explosion benefit in half even though it doesn't get the benefit of chaining. Sub optimal decision making.

Same. Explosion only does EXTRA damage, when there are other mobs nearby, i use chain, because i mainly want to clear out spread out packs, in which lmp does far less (since basically half the projectiles are going to miss) < which in my point is suboptimal if damage only gets through on paper

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Each Barrage Arrow has 40% damage effectiveness. Chain drops it down to 20%. Yes, it shoots 4x. But do you know how armour works in this game? It scales downwards in effectiveness as damage goes up. It's the reason high armor is great for a ton of monkeys beating on you, but much less effective against Kole. So by taking what are individually already weak hits, and making them weaker - you lose a ton of unnecessary damage to enemy Armor. The whole here is not the sum of the parts. Sub Optimal decision making.

Do you know how armor works? Only phys damage gets scaled down and im also using elemental damage on my bow, by preference and chaos from the gem. plus, Barrage gets its own damage increase and even goes above 100% phys damage, ehh, and only then gets scaled down with 88% not 50%. 88% but 3 times more hit is surely suboptimal

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Most people try and get more damage, not less. However, even in the event your purpose was to keep damage down because of reflect, you are going about it completely the wrong way. That should be done in the tree, because there if you take damage off you get the benefit of more nodes for more defense. Poor gem selection takes damage away while giving you nothing in return.

Scared about reflect? Take crit multi off the tree. Grab enough Aura reduction nodes to use the Purity of the elements you are using. Travel to Elemental Adaptation. Carry a Ruby Flask to use when elemental reflect is around. Some combo of these choices with more optimal Gem links will lead to a toon that would greatly outperform where you are currently headed with yours.

I am not sure what to say about LMP - it's ideal for your build for so many reasons. I know it doesn't effect my PC, either my LMP or other people's.

THIS is suboptimal. first of all, im not even using crit multi in the tree. Second of all, why the hell would i spent 40ish points to both travel to ele adaption AND pick up aura reduction, just to run purities? its not like that really benefits my damage? plus, its really more efficient to run added chaos as a gem over lmp, and just pick up the damage out of the tree.

As far as I see it you are just narrowminded not willing to even try out chain, while it is an incredibly underestimated gem. Lmp is great too, but it doesnt do what i want. First of all, im just giving in minor extra damage, since half isnt even going to hit anyway, unless its an huge open area with a huge cluttered pack, but who gives a shit about those places anyways. you are farming, and I certainly am not afraid throwing in lmp when im farming anyways.

In close rooms however, Chain is far superior, hitting around corners and all, autotargeting the adds dominus and other bosses spawns, which lmp doesnt, meaning you will get easy overrun even with the explosion range, which isnt big enough to hit ALL of them. Its a consideration not only including reflect, it includes practicability too. There will be a video up this night, to show how it actually works great.

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feyith wrote:

Sidra already touched on most of the comments I was going to make, so I'll just add:

Chain by itself really only plays well with Split Arrow, Arc and Ethereal Knives.

Any of the Projectile spells like Fireball really do better by combining Chain with LMP. Fireball has never bothered me on other people's characters. The only spells I really don't like grouping with are Discharge and Arctic Breath. If you're worried about making it HC viable*, Arctic Armour will absorb all those millions of little hits.

*I seem to be missing where your defense is coming from. I'd assume perma-flasking and auras, but you have very little increased Evasion and no increased ES nodes and not enough resists to drop Purity. I don't think this is going to end well.

Why doesnt fireball work with chain? Isnt it a projectile? Reason people use conc effect on fireball pften is that they dont care aboit hitting other mobs. Right? I know it works, since ive tried it, and i saw it work. Hell, from lvl 31, i levelled all the way to 55 just using a 4link barrage coc fireball chain. I admit, i had to skip a couple of rogue exiles, but doesnt any build have to skip a couple of that? (Well, except for my dual flame totem, but that build can also run any random combination of map mods, is cheapwr than any other build around, and can wear tabula fur funz instead of wearing a chest with stats.)

Also, i dont see the point about offending my defensive stats. I dont have the gear perfect yet, because. Not a lucly dropping exalts everywhere guy, so taking up my chest slot with tabula right npw for a 6l (which, you basically want badly around here, at least a 5l) and my gloves for maligaro's. Still, even with only 2.2k hp, i rarely die, and if i die, its to a rogue exile, or due to playing bad.

Where my defense comes from? I have heart of the oak for regen, i use health flasks and the rest is dodging skillshots. I never had a problem.on any char having low armor and evasion, and i dont have now. If i could get better gear, sure, but you dont need anything except life nodes from the tree for defenses.

FYI the increased damage on Chain is an additive bonus, not an overall multiplier like the 50% multiplier on chain.

Eh...

Nevermind...I give up. Good luck, bro.

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Asidra wrote:

FYI the increased damage on Chain is an additive bonus, not an overall multiplier like the 50% multiplier on chain.

Eh...

Nevermind...I give up. Good luck, bro.

so lmp is better because it has just a 30% reduction? It also has a higher chance to miss anyways. missed damage is worse than reduced damage. thank you for the towel btw

anyways, Teddy aka pulp did die to reflect with his Elemental buzzsaw....