Why I think that armour will always be better than evasion for a Hardcore character
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If there's really a monster who does 10k physical damage with Enfeeble on him, don't fight him in HC. If you fight him in SC, only fight him if you can completely prevent him from hitting you (e.g. you are ranged, he is slow-moving melee) and hope that victory over this monster is worth a few deaths when you mess up or get hit by a lag spike. Seriously, nobody can eat this kind of damage and nobody has to. It's just not a useful reference point for discussing mitigation strategies.
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There's no way a hit is gonna do 10000 after enfeeble. If such attacks existed, then what is the point of every other curse in the game?
" The more we lower the damage, the LESS this conclusion holds weight. If you aren't going to get one shot, then there is no statistical bomb and your whole argument is moot. " Why not? That sounds pretty unkillable to me, while at the same time it gets my heart racing. It's just a flesh wound! To each his own I guess. Hardcore 4 life!
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The main thing you're forgetting is that Armour only affects Physical damage.
Whereas Evasion can affect all forms of damage, Attacks and Spells(With Phase Acrobatics) Armour is normally always going to be better vs Physical damage, especially with how Endurance Charges are additive with Armour and multiplicative with Evasion. To me, in terms of overall defense, Evasion comes out on top. The ability to dodge every form of damage, especially Chaos damage (You can get 95% dodge chance versus the Chaos damage Vipers with Arrow Dodging), is worth taking the occasional big hits that you can leech/flask/regen back. Last edited by Porkeh#4054 on Feb 1, 2013, 10:34:28 PM
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" Like was mentioned in the other posts, the smaller we make that number the more it favours the armour build as the reduction scales up, whereas the evasion build will keep dodging the same amount of attacks and once in a while eat one of the big hitters completely unmitigated. The numbers used were not intended to be realistical, they were intended to highlight what it is about a flat reduction that makes it easier to deal with through flasks and human reaction time. If you want a realistic example, we can do a 2000 damage physical crit (after Enfeeble is applied) that shocks you followed up by two 1000 damage spells. If these connect, the armour wearer with 25k armor and 75 all resist will take 980 damage from the physical hit, get shocked and then take 700 damage from the two spells for a total of 1680 damage taken. With 4500 life, that is a little over 1/3 of your health. Easily managable. Assuming the stars align and the pure evasion stacker is hit, crit and shocked (which will happen sooner or later, and if we factor in Murphy's law it will be at the worst possible time) he will take 2700 damage which is just over half his 4500 health. Neither person died, but it is fairly easy to see which one recovers easier and which one is more susceptible to burst. The smaller the damage the easilier handled by both specs, the higher the damage the higher your risk of dying from burst as pure evasion, however unlikely. One relies on praying Murphy was wrong, the other one on reacting quickly with flasks etc. Again, this is purely about Hardcore. Anything is "viable" on softcore, as long as it doesnt die more than once per 16% gained experience. | |
" That is the whole point though. There ARE attacks that can come very close to one-shotting you, even if they are very rare. Add a spell hitting you hard right after, and you're a goner due to burst. It takes much higher numbers for the armour based spec to die to the burst as much of the damage is mitigated. " Was exaggerating obviously :) See above. " If you can leech/flask/regen them back, then sure. The problem arises when you can't because the combined hits landing within the same second were bigger than your health pool. It takes bigger numbers for this to happen to the armour based spec. You get more dips in hp with armour, but bigger dips with evasion. EDIT: Am off to bed for now, back in the morning for more opinions on the subject :) Last edited by edef#7712 on Feb 1, 2013, 10:46:59 PM
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If you have lots of evasion, but a small life pool, you will get one-shot. You can't play around this except by having more life.
If you have lots of armour, but a small life pool, you probably won't get one-shot. You'll get two-shot by two back-to-back attacks. Your chance of survival is still way higher, because with epic timing and insta-heal flasks you could still pull through. So yes, in very high-damage situations (read: undergeared/underlevled), armour is much more forgiving. The closer you get to being adequately gear and adequately leveled for the content, the less of a difference there is in terms of evasion's suitability for hardcore. Suggesting armour to first-time Hardcore players might be a good thing, but experienced players who understand the content's difficulty shouldn't be afraid of evasion builds. When Stephen Colbert was killed by HYDRA's Project Insight in 2014, the comedy world lost a hero. Since his life model decoy isn't up to the task, please do not mistake my performance as political discussion. I'm just doing what Steve would have wanted. Last edited by ScrotieMcB#2697 on Feb 1, 2013, 10:49:05 PM
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" Well that's up to my skill as a player then. I don't plan on letting a high damage physical enemy hit me when there are casters still alive nearby, just like you wouldn't let a spider stack 4x viper strike on you. Hardcore 4 life!
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The ONLY time AR is better than EV is when you have the chance to get 1 shotted. However, if you build your character right, that will NEVER happen. No bosses in the game is capable of such high damage, and even an EV character can build up a substantial amount of life.
But either way, IR is better than pure armor any day, so it doesn't really matter. |
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I really like your way of theorycrafting and you are right with your calculation.
If you take it to the extreme, evasion will always have a remaining risk to get oneshotted by a high damage mob who crits. However, there is a very small additional aspect which could make all your efford in vein ;) See it as "risk of life". There will always be the 0,00001% chance to die, but would it be reasonable to not do anything in order to keep your safty at maximum? (for instance stay always at home because you have the risk of dying outside) Also you have to compare different forms of risks. I point out some aspects which has to be considered too: 1, How high is the chance to get critted by a high damage mob if you have high evasion? As evasion reduces crits it might be extremly rare to get crit and even if you get crit only very few monsters can oneshot you if you have spected into life 2, Evasion is probably better vs "dangerous mobs" >>overall<<. Lets say hard hitting and dangerous mobs deal 85% of their damage to your armour build but only 60% damage(40% evasion) to a evasion build then CHANCES ARE HIGHER to die on a random occasion to stronger mobs because you are less prepered vs hard hitting mobs. Also Evasion works well against elemental attacks which reduces overall damage This means you have to compare "overall risk" vs "borderline risk" properly. Espacially if you play hardcore you can say that you just dont play maps where brutus occurs because its not reasonalbe to do it. Espacially 2, is often disregarded. Yes you have the chance to get oneshotted, but evasion grans an overall better survivability which also reduce the risk of dying to random mobs. What if you play hardcore go into chamber of sins and get immidiatly shockstacked by 3 critting blue lighting arrow archers? Evasion could have reduced this risk. I think its wrong to reduce endgame survivabily just to the very minor critchance of UBER brutus In my opinion hybrid armor(STR/DEX) provides the most survivabilty vs attacks->it reduces the hard ones and also the medium ones. In the end all comes down to the quesion: Which defensive builds grants the most overall survivabilty? because it makes no sense to care about getting oneshotted by uberbrutus if you dont even reach him because you died to a pack of blue bears as a result of having no evasion. |
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I think the OP is completely biased towards armor
Why are you factoring a Granite flask into the equation? Evasion is something that works 100% of the time... It is ALWAYS on, regardless of what you do A Granite flask lasts 8 seconds, but it doesnt even matter since you will be dead by the 2nd hit, unless you spam Seething flasks Either way, as others mentioned, with a full HP evasion character, nothing in the game will one shot you anyway, and with a 90%+ evasion build with acrobatics etc, that means you will be unkillable vs bosses because the enthropy system will make sure once you are hit, you wont be hit again for the next 50+ attacks, by which time the boss will be dead The only way that evasion character will ever die, is by being extremely unlucky in a massive group of hard hitting mobs, since the first hit of each mob is truly random, which means you could get hit 5 times in a row or something But lets face it, why would you put yourself in that position in the first place? And there is more! Im willing to bet a high % of HC players will not die due to their own mistake but rather to the usual disconnect... Guess which character has a higher chance of survival? Armor character will be toast if that happens, but the Evasion character will be completely safe, since no boss in the game can attack enough times to kill in the time it takes for timeout All of this assuming the enthropy system Mark spoke of actually works, of course (I need to test it properly myself, but my evade is still too low) In fact I was thinking, if you get say 5% hp regen per second, it means that, unless there is a boss that can hit you twice within 20 seconds, you are immortal, like... literally oO Last edited by soranamae#7017 on Feb 2, 2013, 4:53:15 AM
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