Additive and Multiplicative modifiers
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Premise: There exists in Path of Exile a third set of multiplieres, outside of the Increased/Multiplicative dichotomy.
The physical damage modifier on this skill gem is "Increased physical damage taken" It, however, by virture of being a "damage taken" modifier (over a hypothetical "attacks/spells to this target deal X% increased/more damage" wording) is multiplicative. This is counterintuitive to many people, as the whole wording of skills, passives and items function along the lines of increased/reduced=additive and more/less=multiplicative Now for all intents and purposes, "increased damage taken" is multiplicative, except for fringe cases (dealing physical damage to an enemy frozen by someone with a taryn's shiver staff cursed with vulnerability), and I would argue the confusion that stems from the complication arising out of the relative ambiguity (without this phenomenon, we could just assume increased is always additive and more always multiplicative from the perspective of the player building a character) far outweighs the cases in which it would lead to an actual change in calculations (example see above) and therefore affect gameplay. Therefore I would suggest changing the wording on affected gems and items (et caetera) to "take more X damage" instead of "take increased X damage". This way, people would intuitively (assuming they are aware of the increased/more distinction, which is a basic part of path of exile) come to the right assumption, even though their premise could be right or wrong. Thank you for your attention This thread has been automatically archived. Replies are disabled.
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this mod is multiplicative, youre right
maybe they should probably just change it to "X% more physical damage against cursed enemies" so its completely clear? I carve and sell real animal skulls, check out my work here: https://www.instagram.com/victorseiche/ https://www.facebook.com/victorseicheart/ World first Uber Atziri as 2h and 2h RT build: https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/1058950 Highest level char in Closed Beta, Wytchfindergeneral Last edited by VictorDoom#6290 on Apr 17, 2014, 3:03:42 PM
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Because changing it to "more" is wrong. It's still additive with other "increased damage taken" modifiers, like shock stacks.
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"This. Shock is not a rare corner-case, it's something people frequently try to use in builds and plan around. Increased damage taken is an increased modifier to damage taken. It is not a more modifier, and calling it such would be flat-out lying to any and all players that understand the increased/more distinction and want to try to calculate it's effect in combination with other similar effects. It would also mean that any future modifiers that are actually "more damage taken" wouldn't have anything to be called. The fact that modifiers to "damage taken", and modifiers to "damage" (implied and constantly used to be "damage dealt") are different and are applying to different values is does not effect how they each stack with other modifiers to the same value, which is what increased/more is specifically meant to communicate. If you feel that's confusing and have ideas about how to make the distinction more clear, then I'm all ears, but we won't try to "solve" this problem by lying to our plays about how the modifiers actually work - this is an additive modifier, not a multiplicative one, and that distinction is important. We know it's important because for a while, when we initially introduced the increased/more distinction and were working out how to describe things, we did exactly as you suggest, and it caused confusion and complaints, not clarity. Currently the distinction between "damage taken" and "damage" is made by the following: 1) We try to be as consistent as possible, always specifying "take" when we're talking about damage taken, and only ever using "damage" alone to refer to your damage dealt. We use the specific phrase "damage taken" whenever we can to make this more clear, but in some cases, including vulnerability, that would cause the wording of the rest of the description to be awkward enough that it's not worth it ("cursed enemies have x% increased damage taken") doesn't read nicely to many players). 2) The interaction between the two can be worked out logically by players from the fact that it's not possible for the two to be additive. There's no possible way to combine an increase that occurs before damage mitigation and one that applies after in an additive way. 3) I try to be careful to mention whenever describing this interaction, or the distinction between increased/more in general, that "increased" signifies that all such modifiers to the same value stack additively, not simply all modifiers. increased damage taken and increased damage interact the way they do because they are not the same value, not because of any stacking rules. As I said, anything suggestions you can give to can improve communication of that distinction will be considered, but not at the cost of loosing the meaning of increased vs more and lying to players who understand it. Last edited by Mark_GGG#0000 on Apr 18, 2014, 12:58:27 AM
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fundamentally every post concerning this ends up the same. poor English being used to describe a complex polynomial better suited to plain math. it's like taking a stupid SAT test at times. "When a cyclone leaves Chicago at 42mph...."
how about changing the UI to show the complete polynomial and color coding which effects on gear, passives and gems contribute to which coefficient. even if people suck at math they can match the colors up or worse yet their position in the coefficients (e.g. colorblind) just like any normal math or excel format. parentheses would help players appreciate how all multiplicative terms are additive unto themselves separately from actual additive scalars. that's been the consistent barrier to widespread adoption I've seen both in game and out of game. deciphering the cryptic engine. all arpgs have this issue and some do a better job of explaining the results. poe just plain ignores it and if the tooltips reflect reality you're lucky but not always (*cough* coc *cough*). you're in danger of becoming the LCS (lying character sheet) from diablo2. While I appreciate copying d2 mechanics that's one you shouldn't go near. this would also help people understand if something is contributing or not. supports show as tagtips on their main skill and usually in the damage breakdown but you don't necessarily know if a passive is or not. hell finding the base value for some skills without removing all your gear is tedious and a polynomial makes it obvious as the start value. hide all this as an option for new players until they understand more of what's going on. also this isn't just for offense. defense probably needs it even more so players start valuing it more. I would hope GGG already has such an equation internally for builds to run tests against so exposing it in the game should be trivial. you DO bound test these values for balance right GGG? RIGHT? (yes aegis I'm talking to you) probably the best example of this 'under the hood' option I've seen recently is Killer Instinct on xbox. the true geeks can turn on game internals like hitboxes and animation frame counts to understand reaction times and effects. poe purports to be for the serious gamer so let's get serious about presenting the mechanics and stop burying them in forum posts with outdated information from closed beta. the best source of knowledge for a game should be the game itself and not some wiki page or a forum no matter how active the playerbase. |
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" This would be really helpful. Basically, just put in a function where you can choose existing gems, tree/gear mods, curses, and debuffs and show the results as if it were damage on an actual enemy as part of the game UI. It would be immensely helpful and in terms of coding, most of the stuff is already there as part of the game engine. It just has to be added together in one place in a visual way. my evasion is so high i only insta rip sometimes
----- Bug Fixes: People were using cyclone for actual melee builds, so we nerfed it and made blade vortex. Also, we went ahead and made cyclone great for CoC casters while we were at it. |
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lets add critical multiplier to this to cause even more confusion
as far as i can tell muliplier from gear nodes and gem all seem to go multiplicative.. 10 % from nodes multiplier gives you a final multiplier of 176 not 17o (from my experience) as far as i can tell thats a "more" value the only thing that does correctly state "more" crit damage is critical weakness. but so far everything i have experienced with critical multipliers stacks Multiplicative. even though it states "increased" edit: 165 vs 160 my bad Last edited by agbudar#4976 on Apr 18, 2014, 10:10:43 PM
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