Path to a leaner economy and a healthier game

The Problem
Path of Exile's economy is currently slowly become a bloated lumbering beast. Trampling on those who don't participate in it and choking those who do.

Trade chat is flooded with spam because everything and anything is incentivized to become a part of this bloated beast. Even poe.xyz and the trade forums are becoming filled with unsold items at unrealistic prices, further choking healthy trade. Increasingly you hear reports on how it's becoming more difficult to sell, how it's becoming more difficult to find the items you need to buy at reasonable prices if you can find them at all.

This amidst endless cries and complaints that PoE is by now a trade simulator and not an action RPG.

Path of Exile's economy is bloated.

The Solution
But I'd say it can become healthier. I believe there's room for the developers vision of an engaging economy that brings power to those who participate in it while at the same time remaining a true action RPG. And, more importantly, I think this can be done without resorting to a dedicated self-found league or features such as account-bound items. So that the game can stay in line with it's original concept of a hardcore action RPG with a negotiation-based economy.

To do this Path of Exile's economy needs to be trimmed down. It needs to lose weight and become a leaner healthier beast that does not cause flooded chats, that does not bury indexers and trade forums in unsold items and that does not leave both buyers and sellers unable to find one another to make their deals. What we need is a luxury economy, an economy that's not about quantity of items traded but about quality. An economy that's all about high-end gear.

Path of Exile needs a smaller and more focused economy that centers around high-end gear.

How to slim down the economy
Currently almost every single item in the game is implemented in such a way as to incentivize it's inclusion in the economy. There's a system-wide scarcity on just about everything characters use to ensure that everything that can possibly be traded has market-value.

Yet this is in the end a self-defeating setup. Because everything is scarce and nothing comes in abundance players are deprived of the very means they would need to turn that scarcity into a healthier economy where intelligent use of abundant resources allows them to take advantage of that scarcity to turn a profit. Instead the only means to abundance come in the form of extreme time investment, astronomical luck and RMT. Ending up in a situation that leaves the majority of players without the means of healthy participation, or even voluntary separation, of the economy.

To trim down the economy to a healthier size we need to introduce limited abundance into the system, effectively removing certain items from the economy entirely with the exception of casual trading between friends and guild-members whilst providing a means accessible to all players to have the resources they need to start building wealth and take advantage of the scarcity that remains in the rest of the system.

To achieve that there are three areas I believe need to be changed. I'll offer several potential solutions that will also touch on other aspects besides the economy including self-found, map-sustainability, hardcore-gameplay, rerolling and others. The main point of my post ends here though, that the core game of Path of Exile needs a trimmed-down economy. Not the current iteration where every item is scarce to enforce a market-value but neither a forced absence of economy through a self-found league or bound items.

Scarcity should not be enforced on everything in the game, a healthy economy also requires abundance.

Three areas of improvement
Gems
Gems need to be removed from the economy. Specifically non-quality gems. Non-quality gems are, in the most literal way, the resource players use to begin building wealth and to participate in the economy. Intelligent use of this resource will allow you to take advantage of the scarcity that exists in the game both by killing enemies quicker and acquiring more loot and by allowing you to effectively get by with less.

For this very reason it's vital that skill gems themselves are not subject to such scarcity. A non-quality skill gem should not have any market-value at all beyond casual trades between friends and guildies. Non-quality skill gems should be abundantly available and should be the first thing players look at when they wonder how they're going to acquire the means to buy a specific peace of high-end gear. There should not be a single skill or support gem in the game that can not be easily acquired, without any real cost, by a poor person with a plan to get rich (or die trying).

In addition easier access to gems would inspire exactly the sort of market behavior we desire. A defining quality of high-end gear is links and sockets. Things prized much higher by those with an abundance of gems than those who are already short. Easier access to gems I believe would cause an increase in demand for items with good links and sockets, high-quality gear whose trade would be the singular focus of what I believe to be a healthier economy.

On the subject of skill gems I offer three potential solutions:
1. A new vendor recipe. 3 skill gems of the same color can be traded for a single random level 1 skill gem of the same color whose minimum required level is equal or below the lowest minimum required level of all gems offered. For example, you have a plan for a build that needs Reduced Mana. Except your class isn't getting that support, ever. You could level 3 Heavy Strike gems to level 9 and have a single chance at being able to vendor these for that support. You could level 4 Heavy Strike gems to level 9 and have 4 chances. Level 5 Heavy Strikes and you can vendor them in 10 combinations etc.
2. A new vendor. After beating Dominus for that difficulty Lady Dialla, the Gemling Queen, becomes available as a vendor selling skill gems and supports. She will have a small selection of level 1 gems available each level, never of quality, that can be purchased for an Orb of Chance. At normal difficulty she'll only ever have gems with a minimum level requirement of 10. At cruel she'll have gems up to and including level 24 and in Merciless she will potentially offer every single gem.
3. Extended Quest Rewards. Normal difficulty rewards stay exactly the same. At cruel difficulty every class can also pick from the rewards of adjacent classes, meaning the Marauder also gets his pick from Templar and Duelist gems. The Scion would gain a balanced subset of every single class. At merciless difficulty every class can pick every single gem given to any class as a reward for that particular quest. Rangers could pick from Templar rewards and Witches could pick gems normally offered to Marauders.

The point of these changes is to effectively remove non-quality gems from the greater market, both to slim down the economy as to facilitate easier participation in the economy by removing roadblocks to making a fun farming build.

Maps
Maps should be removed from the economy.

There's a single quality that I believe that all challenging games possess. They give you the option to access content that's tougher than you can handle. This exists in Dark Souls where you have to option to not head to the Undead Burg but instead head straight for the Tomb of Giants. In XCOM: Enemy Unknown you can choose to start on Impossible Ironman difficulty right off the bat. Even Path of Exile has the option to, in normal, skip straight through areas and past side-areas to get access to content that's potentially much higher than your level. In later difficulties there's the option to do higher side-areas right away when you're several levels below or to wait and do them later.

This is good, this adds challenge and choice to the game. However PoE's mapping system goes the exact opposite direction. Instead of giving you access to content that you can't handle it denies you access to content that you can handle. This is bad, both from a gameplay perspective as from an economic perspective.

The lack of this access causes players to flood the market with low-quality items making trade chat, indexers and trade forums a mess full of items that are barely worth the effort of either selling or buying them to get the currency they need to keep on accessing content appropriate for their character. Directly working against what I believe would be a much healthier state of PoE's economy, a smaller luxury economy with a focus on high-end gear.

Instead what I believe would be a much better situation would be if the maps stockpiling in a player's stash were not the type too easy and boring to run but instead maps that are much too hard to run. Giving the player access to content harder than they can handle. In turn this would inspire exactly the market behavior we wish to see, providing a focus instead on the high-end gear required to run these maps as opposed to a constant stream of smaller amounts currency to keep rolling maps.

To achieve this I have two variants of essentially the same solution which, admittedly, is rather extreme. I would suggest a boost in map drop-rates sufficient to effectively destroy any market-value they may have had. With one of these possible simple cave-eats.
1. 66-70 maps would remain the same. 71-75 maps would gain an implicit mod of moderate difficulty, different and appropriate to the type of map. 75+ maps would get an implicit mod of high difficulty, again different and appropriate to the type of map. These implicit mods would give no bonus to the quantity of items dropped.
2. Maps 66-70 will continue to drop in all rarities as they do now. 71-75 maps will only drop as magic or rare, with a bias towards more dangerous mods. Maps 75+ will only drop as rares with a strong bias towards more dangerous mods. The quantity bonus of mods would likely have to be reduced somewhat.

The goal is to provide much easier access to higher maps but at the same time increase the probability that those maps will be harder, this to create an environment where players have continual access to content harder than they can handle. At the same time inspiring demand for high-end items needed to deal with those maps.

Uniques
You're probably expecting an 'uniques need to be removed from the market'. Not quite. Instead how uniques drop needs to be diversified.

Right now we're in the awkward situation where uniques are losing a lot of glamour because the quantity bonuses present in maps, along with whatever rarity players have acquired by that time, causes many uniques to drop at the times players need them least. At the same time this means those uniques are often dumped on the market for prices barely worth the effort of the veterans selling them but still out of rich for new players, the sole audience likely to buy them. More market bloat that we need to get rid off.

Uniques in this game come in several flavors. We've got high-end extremely powerful uniques the likes of Kaom's Heart, Shavronne's Wrappings and Soultaker. We've got general purpose uniques the likes of Goldrim, The Searing Touch and Bright Beak. We've got build-enabling uniques like Facebreakers, Solaris Lorica and Voll's Protector. And we've got leveling uniques the likes of Crown of Thorns, Briskwrap and Ondar's Clasp. These should be split up in separate categories each with their own level and area related drop chances.

Right now, with all uniques being in essentially the same category I believe we're in an unhealthy position when it comes to the market for uniques. The high-end stuff is suitably high-priced and traded for, I'm not looking for changes there. But everything else is in a bad spot that benefits neither trades nor self-found players. Again, the sheer size of the market makes it a pain in the ass to find the items you need without an automated auction house (which would destroy the game in other aspects).

At the same time I believe the current system, which seems designed around the idea that dropping low-level uniques in the end-game will inspire rerolls, is countering itself. I do not believe that the vast majority of low level uniques dropped in maps inspire any thoughts of rerolling. Rerolling I believe is driven by two things. Firstly the idea of a new playstyle, for most builds this does not require any uniques and where it does this applies only to a very small selection of build-enabling uniques, general uniques dropping in the end-game serve no purpose in this. Secondly it's fond memories of the levelling process, uniques dropped in the end-game have no purpose at all in this, on the contrary it's uniques dropped during the levelling process that serve a role here. To inspire rerolls these low level uniques need to be attained during leveling, at a point where the player doesn't have the wealth to effectively participate in the economy. As such they need to drop.

On the matter of uniques I would suggest these changes:
1. High-end uniques should stay as they are. Extremely rare and primarily obtained through trade or the most difficult content. These are exactly the uniques we want to see present on the market. Should only drop in high-level content, mostly through maps with lower chances in high-level Merciless zones.
2. General purpose uniques are useful at most levels but will be replaced by stronger gear without too much difficulty. This category should be available at all levels and should be relatively common too find. These don't flood the market but they do not push it in the direction we wish either, as such I believe their drop chance should be significantly increased but with a heavy bias towards lower rolls. High rolled items will be rare and take the market more in the direction we want. Low rolled items will be more abundant and less likely to appear on the market.
3. Build-enabling uniques need to drop primarily mid-game. The end of cruel and the entirety of Merciless. This is the time where obsessive rerollers need them to start a new character. They should be rarer in maps and early-game. As with general purpose uniques I believe their drop chances should be increased noticeably but with again a strong bias towards lower rolls to enable a market for highly rolled items whilst providing lower rolled variants to inspire players to keep rerolling.
4. Levelling uniques, the type of unique that's only useful in early-game and serves little to no purpose in gearing beyond that need the most change. These uniques are the type that only inspire awe in new players still unfamiliar with the scope of PoE and are, at best, only decent to more experienced players. We don't want to see these on the market much at all but we do want them in the hands of newer players to inspire them to play on. Drop chances for these should be significantly increased in the early game, to the point early act bosses will drop one very often. On the other side they should be very rare mid-game, allowing variants with more sockets and links, and not drop at all in maps, ever.

The purpose here is to end up with less uniques on the market overall but those that are present should be in demand and highly contested. In addition it's to provide a richer levelling experience and easier rerolls giving more options and power to players to build wealth through playing the game.

Final Words
Well... If you've come this far that must've been one heck of a long read. Thank you for reading my rambling and even if you disagree vehemently, I've been wrong before, I do hope it provided some food for thought about the state of the game and the role that the economy should play there.

The main point I wish to make is that I do believe that the economy has a real and significant role to play in Path of Exile but that currently that role has become much too broad. The economy needs to be refocused, specifically on high-end gear, providing clear aspirations and goals to those who do trade, which fits in much better with PoE's chosen format without an auction house but with trade through simple chatting. At the same time it would relieve other areas of the game of the economy's constant influence and allow those to stand on their own.
My vision for a better PoE: http://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/863780
Last edited by Gobla#3221 on Mar 27, 2014, 4:31:00 PM
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I've never had a problem with the economy, but, as someone who adores this game, I just wanted to say I really appreciate the time you put into this. Constructive criticism is always welcome.
Three areas of improvement>>>>>Maps = Some of the best written words ever seen in the Forums.
Holy fishtits, that's some quality lines right there, at least the first half. You can't honestly write it any better folks.
https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/1552460 - my drop solution
Specs: CPU - i5 9600k, geforce 2060, 32 gb ram, ssd, 2133/2333 mz.-----
EXILES EVERYWHERE, PLEASE?!?!?!
Last edited by Cergic#6625 on Mar 27, 2014, 4:18:24 PM
So basically you want an AH without saying you want an AH.
"
Zaanus wrote:
So basically you want an AH without saying you want an AH.


I'm sorry, I'm somewhat confused as to how you came to this conclusion as at no point do I mention anything whatsoever about buyouts, auctions or other AH related concepts, let alone describe them as a good idea.

Would you mind pointing out what part exactly gave you this impression?
My vision for a better PoE: http://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/863780
You completely contradict yourself.

"The problem with PoE is abundance."

"Make uniques less common but better."

This ensures that only the rich will be able to use uniques. Fun build-enabling uniques will be less common, reducing gameplay variability for players.

This is pretty antithetical to what Qarl has said. Uniques can be made a little bit better if they're super rare, but what governs their power/value shouldn't just be how rare they are.
My Keystone Ideas: http://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/744282
this problem is the same exact problem diablo 3 had with the auction house.

poe.xyz IS THE POE AUCTION HOUSE

there is no difference in functionality between these things besides the fact that in poe you have to alt tab to access the auction house and theres no official middleman where the item sits in escrow (you have to finalize the trade 1on1)

but people looking to sell items and buy items efficiently treat it exactly as they would any official auction house in an ARPG/mmo.

and yeah, it was the same thing there. very quickly the auction house is FILLED with loads of "good but not absolutely great" items for dirt cheap, and the absolute best items are very expensive. it becomes hard to sell anything unless it's a GG item because there's so much of everything else.

then there is the build enabling important items you need, often unique. these can be very expensive. how do you afford them?

exactly as in d3, it comes down to finding that "one good drop" for most people, unless you are a masochistic soul who is content farming alts for hours on end.

it's fascinating to me that PoE is now going through the same pains that D3 did but it took this long for it to happen.

the only difference is, and the reason why it took PoE so long to enter this stage: the AH tool wasn't included, so the community built their own, and now we are back to the same problem that put diablo 3 into a full blown COMA

so now it's just a matter of watching with popcorn as the same disease d3 had slowly infects PoE.

"
anubite wrote:
This is pretty antithetical to what Qarl has said. Uniques can be made a little bit better if they're super rare, but what governs their power/value shouldn't just be how rare they are.




Sorry, were you saying something?

Not disagreeing with you, just pointing out that if GGG once held that view, they no longer do.
Last edited by Veruski#5480 on Mar 27, 2014, 7:13:10 PM
The idea one can effectively remove junk items from the economy is incredibly naive. I mean, you can remove some of them, but the only way to do it is to make trading more of a pain in the ass. Seriously, that's it. You can't make mediocre items stop dropping; they will always drop. And as long as they drop, there will be people flooding the trade chat/forums/indexers/whatever with spam for shitty items which have only the faintest hope of selling. Unless you actually make it not worth their time to list, which means: making all listings more difficult.

I mean, if you really want to stop players from flooding the economy with crap items, find a way to destroy poe.xyz.is. You'd piss a lot of people off, including me, but trading would be quite a bit harder, so people would give up on listing some of their crappy items. Of course, I'm kidding; the cure here is worse than the disease.

None of the changes you propose would fix the problem you are trying to fix.

The only thing I have to add to that is we really need to change the vendor formula for maps to "2 maps of the same area -> 1 map of higher level." Currently you need 3 of the same area.
When Stephen Colbert was killed by HYDRA's Project Insight in 2014, the comedy world lost a hero. Since his life model decoy isn't up to the task, please do not mistake my performance as political discussion. I'm just doing what Steve would have wanted.
Last edited by ScrotieMcB#2697 on Mar 27, 2014, 7:43:24 PM
Best thing they could do is add dozens of vendor recipes that take uniques out of the economy.
"
Zaanus wrote:
So basically you want an AH without saying you want an AH.


There's already an AH. Find a single player doing endgame maps who doesn't know about poe.xyz.

The original glamour of this game was "we're going to do it old school, no auction house". A lot of people like me thought, hey, great, takes me back to the old feelings of SWG and Raph Koster's philosophy against auction houses in online RPG's. Took me back to D2 where "finding something great" included the finding part, which is completely irrelevant with the current situation.

But low and behold, some guy just made a webpage AH and everyone uses it. I'm sure he's loving it every time I see his ads. Imagine if that site and the others like it disappeared, imagine how many players spoiled by it would quit.

The only reason anyone posts on the trade forums is to "list" on the auction house.

There's really no difference between what the poe.xyz guy is doing, and if a guy invented some tech to make your car completely invisible so you could speed at 200mph down the highway and avoid the speed limits. He's making money on selling a shortcut that is effectively disruptive.

And thanks to all of this, PoE is going the same way as D3 did with an AH, rather than the original glory of D2 most of us hoped for. I'm having a hard enough time filling map groups on Ambush the past week at all hours of the day, even with cheap prices (76 chiseled, alch'ed, and if need be chaos rolled maps, with a group fee of 1 alch!)

Something has to change. We can all feel the game is bleeding players. I don't even know if I'm sticking around 'til the conclusion of Ambush at this point, but I still recommend the game to friends, hoping to bring more to it.

Oh, and an equally, probably even bigger gripe, is how there are magnitudes more of farming characters from eastern countries that are "working" on here, probably from prisons, always eager to jump on flipping currency in trade chat so they can enable the pay2win RMT mode for Johnny Moneybags who wants to swipe his mastercard for that Lionseye.

That ruins the game experience.
In-game: WrongHoleBaby
Last edited by Sepelion#3090 on Mar 27, 2014, 9:22:44 PM

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