Leech: GGG clarify please!

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raics wrote:

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tikitaki wrote:

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Emphasy wrote:

Which skill does small bursts in a short period and then nothing?

I have no idea what you are asking.

Well he's asking which skill does small bursts in a short period and then nothing.

And the answer is: most single-hit AoE skills.

Well the problem I see is that you aren't able to reach the cap anymore because additional simultanious hits from AoE-Attacks don't count anymore.

With a 20% Cap if each of 4 Hits was enough to fill 5% you were capped out. Now only one of this effects will trigger. That isn't too bad since most characters use the same skills for single and multitarget and they require it to work against single targets so they should cap out also against multi-targets.

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If I hit 5 mobs at once with enough damage to take 0.1 seconds to leech all the mana back...despatch I leech at that rate for 0.5 seconds. Post patch I leech at that rate
For 0.1 seconds. That's why we leech less after the patch.

That is basically the summery of this. And it is an issue, but not the main one. One exception are shotgunning casters like FP or Fireball. One of their projectiles is propably not enough to cap their leech, since they are Int-based and have a lot of mana which increases their leech-cap. So in the worst case if they barely reached the cap they lose 66% of their mana- & life-leech. So these characters are obviously allowed to cry.

Another example is spark and Storm-Call casters. Even against single-targets both spells have a weird pattern. Spark shotguns enemies like the above spells but propably a bit more random and storm-call detonates all the marks in a very short period and takes a long time to place new marks. It is propably the only spell that fits my above description, a lot of hits and then nothing. Both spells are also hit.

Another type of characters that is hit quite heavily are low-mana attackers, propably duelists or rangers who don't have a lot of mana and although their mana-costs are in not that high in general they might end up with only about 500 Mana in total making their leech cap out at 63 mana per second, which isn't that much. They normally only need the 2% you get from the shadow-area or a similar source to cap mana-leech. Before the patch they had a similar problem, but a lot of fights don't allow you to simply stand still and attack, they require movement or the use of other non-leeching skills. Since the mana-leech stacked these periods could be bridged by using up the stacked leech before you started attacking again. Not having this advantage hurts those characters.


I don't mind the reduced effectiveness of AoE-leech that much. However I would prefer opening LGoH up for Spells since it is very clear that this is the prefered AoE-sustain method. On the mana-side I don't really think AoE-changes are necessary. Because in difference to life your mana-requirement does not go up when there are more enemies around (except MoM... but they should have a lot of regen and a high mana-pool). However it is very clear that certain character-types, exspecially casters that use the shotgunning ability of certain spells, clearly lose out with those changes, while other characters like low-mana attackers show that the low cap of 12,5% for mana isn't going to work out.

The fireball example i've given wasn't pulled out of thin air, but is the spec of my actual fire witch.
Another one of my chars, a reaver duelist that should be unplayable if the complaints were founded: Mana pool 725; unreserved mana 87. Attacks per second 5.08. Physical damage per attack and monster a meager 928. Mana leech only 2% of physical damage. By all means this should no longer work with the little damage he is dealing to a single target and the low mana leech.
928 * 0.02 = 18.56 mana with a single attack.
With 725 max mana i can leech 90 mana per second. Leech duration: 18.56/90 = 0.2 seconds.
This also being my attck rate i still have 0 (zero) gaps in leeching. NO difference to the situation before the patch.



As the above char is taylormade to be one suffering severly from the patch, but actually isn't touched the slightest, i can only assume that all the fears are just blown out of proportion.
If someone is experiencing a severe restriction in gameplay with his char he/she should post the specifics of the build, so that the discussion is based on facts not fears.

Basically they decided that leech was too strong for what ever reason so instead of toning it down a little and seeing if it was enough, they did the standard GGG thing and totally over did it and then told us that they didnt nerf it and we are mistaken.

The bad thing with this one is that its not something we can respec to fix. So all AOE/multi hit low mana builds i.e every-one because of the stupid aura changes are now mana starved unless you can find at least double the mana you had before.

Another job well done gg GGG.

Edited.

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Bada_Bing wrote:

The fireball example i've given wasn't pulled out of thin air

It clearly is.

Leech is calculated based on damage dealt, not the numbers in your tooltip.

The game does not care how much theoretical dps you do to a monster with no resists.

The reality is like this:
You hit the monster for 928 initial damage
The monster resists the damage by say 40% (either through resists or armor)
You deal 556 damage to the monster.
You leech 2% of damage dealt, or 11 mana (not 18)

You are surprisingly close to having gaps in your leech, if not there already.

wow nice .. leech + block seems to be fucked up now... i did just a 76 map with a random group and my hp bar was shaking like during an earthquake..and i took insane damage permanently

76 is usually kindergarden shit for me and my hp bar would move a lil for 3-4 times during the whole map..

why the hell do i have 73/69 block and 13% lifeleech if its useless shit now?

thats really great!!!! GG GGG ! best optimisation ever

if this is normal now.. then il take a niiiicce long break from this.. because its no more fun..

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maxor wrote:

Basically they decided that leech was too strong for what ever reason so instead of toning it down a little and seeing if it was enough, they did the standard GGG thing and totally over did it and then told us that they didnt nerf it and we are mistaken.

The bad thing with this one is that its not something we can respec to fix. So all AOE/multi hit low mana builds i.e every-one because of the stupid aura changes are now mana starved unless you can find at least double the mana you had before.

Another job well done gg GGG.

Edited.

I have not seen any GGG post claiming there was no nerf. Did I miss something?

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maxor wrote:

Basically they decided that leech was too strong for what ever reason so instead of toning it down a little and seeing if it was enough, they did the standard GGG thing and totally over did it and then told us that they didnt nerf it and we are mistaken.

The bad thing with this one is that its not something we can respec to fix. So all AOE/multi hit low mana builds i.e every-one because of the stupid aura changes are now mana starved unless you can find at least double the mana you had before.

Another job well done gg GGG.

Edited.

That is the point, some people claim that this change is good for the diversity. Totally insane.

If you ease the necessity for mana then you open free stats/points possibilities with which you can play! now since mana reg and life/armor is more important, this is limiting possibilities. I am still sure they had no idea about the reach of this rude change.

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raics wrote:

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RagnarokX wrote:

so is split arrow, chain, life leech worse or bette and by how much

That's pretty easy to calculate.

take your average physical damage per hit
apply your leech percentage
get your leech rate and see how long will it take to transfer the leeched amount
compare with your attack rate (1/APS, you might have to guess a bit with chain)

if leech time is longer than your attack rate there's no difference, if it's shorter it will be worse than before, by the factor of leech time / attack rate.

This is all arbitrary, of course, crits skew the calculation a lot.

I started a spreadsheet to try to figure some of the above out on my characters.

Try it out, put your own numbers in, have fun. The one thing I need to fix is that I thought all leech except the current timer would be ignored until that timer ran out. So the "wasted leech" is off because it assumes your other parallel timers are all equal to or shorter than the current one. BUT you can still figure out how to get your leech rate and attack speed/damage synced up so that you're always leeching at maximum while attacking (when you stop you have "leech time" left to start attacking again before your heals end.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0An8BBT2jKZMcdFpyNjN1TXdOejFWRVl0WlZ5WGR5NGc&usp=sharing

Someone made a really good note about the fact that you're most likely dealing less than your tooltip's worth of DPS because of mob damage mitigation. This might be a good thing to add to the sheet.

I feel that Blood Rage needs to be changed to provide flat Life Gain on Hit instead of Physical Life Leech. Since the builds that make use of it fire off small fast hits, this change really crippled those builds that relied on BR for Leech..

I guess that could have been GGG's goal, to force people to use more non-DPS Supports to be able to run their skills, so as to not trivialize content. But that kind of goes against their message, that a 6-Link should be a luxury, not a necessity.

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Sheriff_K wrote:

I feel that Blood Rage needs to be changed to provide flat Life Gain on Hit instead of Physical Life Leech. Since the builds that make use of it fire off small fast hits, this change really crippled those builds that relied on BR for Leech..

I guess that could have been GGG's goal, to force people to use more non-DPS Supports to be able to run their skills, so as to not trivialize content. But that kind of goes against their message, that a 6-Link should be a luxury, not a necessity.

The only thing it really changed was that once you stop attacking you don't get free healing for a long time. You still leech at the same rate, you still leech just like anyone else *while attacking*, so the affected builds are anyone who hits faster than they leech (which would cause it to queue). The reason for that isn't obvious to me. I've had some ideas:

a) The rapid hitters can build up a queue way faster than slow hitters, so they wanted to bring them to be more equal.

b) (similar to a) 2H isn't popular enough so they want it to have a niche by giving you long leech times. So you have a significant play difference and trade-off and AS becomes less necessary.

c) (as mentioned in b) AS is too popular as a way of increasing DPS (which increases leech when they queue). So now you've closed the gap between the choice of AS or HP as a leech efficiency strategy.

d) maybe being able to run away and still leech for awhile is considered too easy. I figured with the Vaal Pact tweak they normalized the HoT vs instant leecher playstyles, so this point is either invalid or they WAY overreacted.