Mind Drinker 2%, Worth It?

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Softspoken wrote:

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Brazilski wrote:

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Autocthon wrote:

1) Ice Bite is trash unless you're using flat cold damage as your primary damage, so no not worth it.

Well, that was kinda the idea.

I think what Autocthon's getting at here is that Ice Arrow's damage is actually based on your physical damage. As such, passives and notables that boost your physical damage will boost the physical and cold components of ice arrow, while Ice Bite only applies to 40% of your damage. (More if you're using Hatred, I guess?)

Anyways, the core idea is: +phys nodes will boost both your physical and cold damage because ice arrow & hatred are conversions that work off of physical damage. Ice bite will only work on a subset of your damage, so instead of 30% increased damage it's more like 16% increased? (Level 10 Hatred) I'm not totally certain of the math there, but the core is: it's not the full +30% it looks like.

EDIT: Just looked at the suggested tree, and yeah Ice Bite will probably require you to waste too many points to be worth the effort.

It'll probably end up considerably worth than 16%. Because it's additive with your phys bonuses. Probably 10% or less.

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Autocthon wrote:

It'll probably end up considerably worth than 16%. Because it's additive with your phys bonuses. Probably 10% or less.

While I get what you're saying here, (16% increased damage isn't 16% increased DPS) I prefer to express the value in terms of increased damage so you can compare it to other passive node options easily. (So in this case, spending the 5+ nodes elsewhere can probably get you more than 16% increased damage)

Also, calculating actual expected DPS requires a lot of context about the character's current bonuses and is kind of hard for me. >.> It's good though because it lets you accurately compare between crit and attack speed nodes and the like.

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Softspoken wrote:

I think what Autocthon's getting at here is that Ice Arrow's damage is actually based on your physical damage. As such, passives and notables that boost your physical damage will boost the physical and cold components of ice arrow, while Ice Bite only applies to 40% of your damage.

That,.. actually makes a lot of sense. Thanks!

But what about Frenzy, is it required to make this kind of build work? I've been fiddling around with the better criticals build, including Acrobatics and Ondar's Guile, and dropping the Frenzy nodes seems a lot more effective. I do have a problem in that the build seems to get awefully skillpoint heavy. Obviously this isn't a problem for a true end-game build, but it becomes difficult to establish what to prioritise. Dropping Charisma appears to be the best option to keep it manageable, as it gobbles up another four +10 nodes just to get there:

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Softspoken wrote:

Also, calculating actual expected DPS requires a lot of context about the character's current bonuses and is kind of hard for me. >.> It's good though because it lets you accurately compare between crit and attack speed nodes and the like.

Pfff,.. this game is harder than Syberia II without walkthroughs, and I've been stuck in that game for over three years now.

While Frenzy probably won't be needed to make the build work, I personally find Frenzy charges to be very easy to acquire and maintain in a bow build. If you couple that with how you're not needing to go out of your way for the Frenzy passives, and that they can become worth 4% increased evasion per charge, I think they're still efficient and effective?

Basically, taking them costs 4 points, gives you +10% increased attack speed than going without, and 20% increased evasion.

As for the tree... I'm having trouble with it, so I don't think I can give you good advice. There are a lot of bow nodes! And I want you to take all of them! But that is clearly not possible. Still, I think I have a guiding rule for your build, assuming Ice Shot and -possibly- Hatred.
Physical damage > elemental damage. Physical damage gets better the higher it is above armor, and all of your cold damage is converted from your physical. So to make your physical be worth keeping (especially relevant for mind drinker?) it needs to be high, and it'll boost your cold damage as a side effect.

I think +phys ends up being worth almost twice as much as +ele, if you prioritize elemental and physical damage equally. If for some reason you detest physical damage, they pull closer to parity.

The other thing is, if you're using Hatred, you should seriously consider aura nodes. Charisma and Influence aren't too far from your tree already, and may let you also add in a low-level Clarity. If you just don't want to spare the points for them, then I'd say ditch auras altogether.

EDIT: And if you're not using Hatred, physical nodes are far and away better than +ele nodess, worth three or four times as much per percentage point.

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Softspoken wrote:

I think +phys ends up being worth almost twice as much as +ele, if you prioritize elemental and physical damage equally. If for some reason you detest physical damage,..

Hmmm,.. no, my only concern with physical damage was that it would go at the expense of elemental (cold) damage. However, if it simply translates into more elemental damage it seems like a win/win situation to me, as paired with Mind Drinker it does indeed help sustain mana consumption.

The problem remains though that with Frenzy and Charisma, the build is very point heavy. A point or two can be won here and there, but not much. Considering the advantages of physical damage, I think it's best to drop the flat elemental damage nodes alltogether as they eat up at least 6 points.

Final update: created a new thread on possible respec.

http://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/710095