What's ironic is that as recent a 2+ months ago, elemental damage was king, ci was op and the 4 month hardcore league ladder (onslaught) was basically ci league on the top....and witch was the most popular class by far.
Call me crazy but D3 and especially Torchlight did this right..
Just add (not completely replace) weapon DPS (at least partially) into spell damage..and we can have proper spell damage scaling ..
of course..we will bump into another problem..it's passive tree design and affixes..min-maxers will quickly realize if taking spell damage passives or weapon damage passives are better for casters..maybe it's time to start merging some stats? or at least normalizing?
torchlight 2 just as d2 or poe did not have weapon damage incorporated....I think its a lazy solution altogether. Not only you get away from a system that allows spell scaling to exist separately (wands, daggers, staves) but also enable nonsense like casting spells with 2h axe doing major damage....insteadof balancing DMG, crit, cast speed....you will look for biggest dps gun....er weapon there is.
Do all of you casters that claim your character sucks actually have semi decent gear and critical chance? Like...more then 5%? Because thats where your damage comes from critical chance and multiplier + penetration gems. Casters can do the same dps as a melee class at similar cost. Often times depending on the skill involved..less cost. You're not doing it right. Especially if you're making claims that EK is weak. I can see if you're maining something thats ass like Firestorm..but not EK.
I have decent gear and i'm maining EK. While I wouldn't call it weak, it still doesn't compare to a lower geared melee character running one of the common Duelist or Marauder builds. I will top out at ~20k when I finish the build, where a melee character will do double that.
Seems like cast speed is a big thing. Where i'm casting just under 2 times per sec, you have melee hitting 6-10 times per second.
Last edited by Fun_Hat#6742 on Dec 1, 2013, 5:55:29 AM
Do all of you casters that claim your character sucks actually have semi decent gear and critical chance? Like...more then 5%? Because thats where your damage comes from critical chance and multiplier + penetration gems. Casters can do the same dps as a melee class at similar cost. Often times depending on the skill involved..less cost. You're not doing it right. Especially if you're making claims that EK is weak. I can see if you're maining something thats ass like Firestorm..but not EK.
I have decent gear and i'm maining EK. While I wouldn't call it weak, it still doesn't compare to a lower geared melee character running one of the common Duelist or Marauder builds. I will top out at ~20k when I finish the build, where a melee character will do double that.
Seems like cast speed is a big thing. Where i'm casting just under 2 times per sec, you have melee hitting 6-10 times per second.
Their hitting dozen times for weak damage which adds up. Casters are all about that big critical. Unless you're using spark.
Call me crazy but D3 and especially Torchlight did this right..
Just add (not completely replace) weapon DPS (at least partially) into spell damage..and we can have proper spell damage scaling ..
of course..we will bump into another problem..it's passive tree design and affixes..min-maxers will quickly realize if taking spell damage passives or weapon damage passives are better for casters..maybe it's time to start merging some stats? or at least normalizing?
torchlight 2 just as d2 or poe did not have weapon damage incorporated....I think its a lazy solution altogether. Not only you get away from a system that allows spell scaling to exist separately (wands, daggers, staves) but also enable nonsense like casting spells with 2h axe doing major damage....insteadof balancing DMG, crit, cast speed....you will look for biggest dps gun....er weapon there is.
TL2 and even TL1 is incorporated weapon damage into spell damage.. just checked.. in TL you have spells with static damage (scaling by levels - but sometimes by skill level AND character level)..they have spells which damage is calculated by weapon damage..and also mix of both ..like deal 100-160 fire damage and 40% weapon damage as fire..
However..I don't feel it's lazy solution..actually it's best what I have found.. In D3...attack speed = casting speed.. This system doesn't prevent to have distinct caster and melee weapon.. caster/melee affixes may still exists.. what this system would fix is proper spell damage scaling and much easier to balance melee, ranged and spell characters.. Of course.. D3 has it..so it has to be BAD.. but there is way to do it properly..
1. I don't think it is fair to keep bringing up 50-100k DPS on melee. An average char with average equipment won't have anywhere near that, and that is way far and above what you need to kill anything in the game, thus can safely be assumed that if any changes are made, it is to bring down the ridiculous scaling of melee equipment on end-game gear. Trying to change a level 20 fireball to do anywhere near 100k would instantly break the game and anyone with an ounce of logic can see that.
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2. The main problem with ES is the game is based off of two concepts: Max health pool and how fast you can regenerate it. ES does fine in the max effective health area, but fails miserably in regeneration. The base 6 seconds is an extremely long time in a fast paced game like PoE, thus forcing any sort of ES play to go for ZO/GR, both of which are out of the Witch starting area.
At the very least, Witch needs some sort of keystone that helps regenerate ES. A ES-on-elemental damage-hit or something.
3. The base crit chance on spells needs to be looked at. Critical hits are supposed to be the Witch's "thing" yet starts with such a low crit chance compared to weapons, at best you are breaking even. Then when you throw in melee IAS and several more weapon nodes, it falls behind again.
4. Perhaps more spell supports would be the answer. Part of the reason why melee attacks can get so high is the multiplication effect from several sources, one of which being support gems. Or perhaps additional caster-specific item affixes. Either way, the issue is damage scaling through gear (or lack there of), and that should be the focus of changes. Messing around too much with the base damage on spells is begging for trouble.
5. Personal rant here: They really should change summon scaling so it is more manageable in the early game. Summons are a great way to make up for a lot of caster issues (such as avoiding attacks to keep ES up and lack of armor/evasion), but the current set-up is extremely frustrating, especially for newer players and/or characters. Summons are near worthless in the beginning of the game and border-lined overpowered in the late... could smooth that out a bit.
The two main problems there is, again, regeneration. Summons have the health pool, even in the early-ish game, but with zero regeneration they will inevitably die fast. Once you support them with LL/LoH, rejuv totems, resists, etc., they become very tanky. But many of those concepts are later-game elements, and strength-based without any easy access to through quest rewards.
Edit: Lulz... said two problems, but only actually stated the one. The other is the elements that make summons tanky/strong are not Int-based. LL/LoH, melee splash, totems, and such are difficult to come by as a starting Witch. If given the choice I'd much rather see those nerfed in some way and given some innate boosts to summons instead. It seems a bit wrong that summons are expected to be Int-based Witch play, yet the best way to play one is essentially as a Marauder.
The ideal fix would be something that kills two birds with one stone: Give Witch area a keystone that helps regenerate ES somehow, and perhaps a few more nodes behind it that transfers over to summons. A way to not only keep their own defenses up, but to support minions without needing to stack a ton of late-game strength-based gems.
You do realize that unsupported EK is what gives a gigantic amount of damage to cast on crit builds, right? Like quite literally just EK. That's how some of these 100k dps builds are from
Also, are you guys fucking serious? Have you checked out the prices of decent melee weapons? 400+ pdps 2h sword? TEN EXALTED ORBS. 500 pdps 2h sword? TEN EXALTED AS FIRST BID. 20+ for buyout. And builds like that get high dps in MELEE for SINGLE TARGET. And that's with quite a bit of investment into offensive nodes.
Casters ARE the cheaper option to make unless you're making a niche build. Your level 20 gem can be bought for an exalted orb and that's your main damage scaling. Also if you're comparing to two handed users then remember that two handed users are LESS tanky than casters (unless your caster is running around with a two handed mace or something). Two handers do not give any defensive bonuses - staves do. So do shields - you can have an extra ES or life roll on a shield + block. One handed melee does nowhere near the amounts of damage without spell interaction and having as many defensive nodes.
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The problem with spells is the low base crit chance on so many spells and the fact that spells seem to work in weird ways. Shock nova? you think this is going to be like ice nova? YOU'RE WRONG. It's intentionally made so it won't be a main damage skill with its awkward positioning. Ice nova? Intentionally bad scaling. Arctic breath? Same like freezing pulse but just plain worse. Ice spear? Humungous mana cost and less damage than FP.
There are just very few actual spells you want to cast (fireball is bad cause everything seems to be fire resistant in this game and it doesn't pierce and in general doesn't appear very good). Mostly it's traps + EK + freezingpulse that are worth using. There just aren't enough spells for casting casters.
You do realize that unsupported EK is what gives a gigantic amount of damage to cast on crit builds, right? Like quite literally just EK. That's how some of these 100k dps builds are from
...so how about we give EK no mana-cost and 0,05sec base cast-time. Then we can talk. I would say that these 100k dps comes from Cast on Crit... not from EK.
Another problem I like to point out is the complete lack of mana management and imbalanced skill cost of attack skill vs spells.
Any attack based build can just slap a 2% mana leech on gear, or just spend 1 point in the passive and call it a day. You may need to run a lvl 5 or below clarity as well, but that cost literally nothing after reduce mana gem. Not only that, you can further slap a 2-4% life leech on gear and get rid of life leech gem too, in additional you can support yourself with life on hit via gem/item.
ALL caster non-trap build NEED mana leech gem if you want to do good dps. There is no if or but, you cant support shit with mana regen for anything higher than a 4L unless you want to cast like 1 spell per second. Not only that life leech is also a must even if you are CI, there is no alternative to getting sustain. Compare this to attack based builds, that's a additional 2 links gone.
Then we have the mana cost of attack skill vs spell. WHY THE FUCK DO SPELLS COST TWICE AS MUCH MANA AS ATTACK SKILLS? Not only do attackers gain free mana management via mana leech mods, they also cost less to use. This allow builds to stack as many %auras as possible and not give a damn as long as they have that 2% mana leech. Casters? LOL go run with 50 mana after reserve and tell me how it goes.
Oh to the guy complaining about cost of good weapons. Similar wands cost just as much if not more, and check out the price of good ES gears while your at it.
Another problem I like to point out is the complete lack of mana management and imbalanced skill cost of attack skill vs spells.
Any attack based build can just slap a 2% mana leech on gear, or just spend 1 point in the passive and call it a day. You may need to run a lvl 5 or below clarity as well, but that cost literally nothing after reduce mana gem. Not only that, you can further slap a 2-4% life leech on gear and get rid of life leech gem too, in additional you can support yourself with life on hit via gem/item.
ALL caster non-trap build NEED mana leech gem if you want to do good dps. There is no if or but, you cant support shit with mana regen for anything higher than a 4L unless you want to cast like 1 spell per second. Not only that life leech is also a must even if you are CI, there is no alternative to getting sustain. Compare this to attack based builds, that's a additional 2 links gone.
Then we have the mana cost of attack skill vs spell. WHY THE FUCK DO SPELLS COST TWICE AS MUCH MANA AS ATTACK SKILLS? Not only do attackers gain free mana management via mana leech mods, they also cost less to use. This allow builds to stack as many %auras as possible and not give a damn as long as they have that 2% mana leech. Casters? LOL go run with 50 mana after reserve and tell me how it goes.
Oh to the guy complaining about cost of good weapons. Similar wands cost just as much if not more, and check out the price of good ES gears while your at it.
I guess the reason spells cost more mana is because most casters will generally have more int than melee builds. Anyways I can easily sustain my 100 mana cost EK with clarity and EB, I don't need mana leech at all.
If you use 2 auras without any aura reserve nodes you are pretty much forced to use blood magic gem or soultaker as melee. Basically you can't really stack auras and use mana leech to solve your mana problems since you'd need like +60 mana after auras to be able to sustain skills with 2% leech. Mana leech is based on your unreserved mana as far as I know.
