Support gems on Curses
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Please enable more support gems for curses.
Currently i enhance my curses with the same old stuff each and everytime: increased duration, faster casting, reduced mana, increased area of effect. Why not enable increased item quantity and rarity for curses? A curse that is supported by these will make enemies that are cursed drop better and more loot. Or how about pierce support on a curse, which makes cursed enemies pierce more. Mana leech, resist penetration, blind, chance to flee, chance to ignite, culling strike there is plenty to choose from. Enabling curses to be supported by more gems would make curses a lot more diverse and pave the way for more diverse skillbuilds. I certainly would like to see more support gems enabled for curses. This thread has been automatically archived. Replies are disabled.
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" Because it makes no sense. You are not killing anything with a curse, so the IIQ/IIR support gems cannot work. This is true for any other skills that are not capable of killing enemies as well, such as auras. Having IIQ/IIR or any other support gems that trigger their effect on kill (edit: or hit) work with curses would just add an illogical and confusing hack rule to the game. I do agree that the choice what support gems to use on curses is a pretty trivial one, though. As GGG is adding gems to the game, hopefully there will be some more interesting choices in the future. For example, I would like a "desecration" support gem which targets the ground instead of enemies, with all enemies within the targeted area suffering the effect of the curse. Disregard witches, aquire currency. Last edited by dust7 on Dec 13, 2012, 7:34:13 AM
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" Thats not a valid argument even if it were true. Whether something kills someone is not an argument when it comes to support gems. Spell totem? Doesnt kill anything on its own, but it can be ENHANCED with support gems to change the way it works. Support gems are in the game to change how spells/curses behave, some support gems drastically change how some spells work, while others dont. Giving curses the option to benefit from more support gems that are already in the game is not only NOT illogical, it is absolutely a logical thing to do. The only thing that really speaks against it is codeability and balance issues. Are curses enhanced with specific supports too strong? For some specific support gems this is definitely true. Something like fire penetration on elemental weakness might be too strong. Its definitely a subject that should be looked into though because it could potentially greatly increase the variety of support gems one can use for his curses, thus enhancing the game. Last edited by gh0un on Dec 13, 2012, 8:08:38 AM
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IIQ/IIR are applied to killing hit.
You can't have killing hit with curse, so there is no point in supporting one with these. Last edited by d0nX on Dec 13, 2012, 8:22:19 AM
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" Actually it's a completely valid argument as that's how the IIQ/IIR work. The IIQ/IIR is only applied if the support gem is attached to the skill that actually kills the mob. Since curse can't kill mobs, it'd never initiate the IIQ/IIR. Sure, you could code it to work like this, but then you'd be changing how the entire skill works. Not to mention it would be abused as you could just spam curses on everything and add Whispers of Doom into the mix for ensuring that you always get IIQ/IIR. | |
" First off, the code for this to work is already in the game. Power siphon doesnt need the last hit on the enemy to grant a power charge, which means the mechanic to do stuff like this is already in the game. Secondly, regarding the "changing how the skill works" thats the point. Greater multiple projectile completely changes how some spells work, thats the point of a support gem. It changes how a skill works, shocker. Im abusing 5 linked skills that behave a lot differently RIGHT now. Im using skills that dont usually pierce, then fork into other enemies, and then freeze the enemy even though it is a fireball because im using added cold damage. Shocker, the skill behaves a lot differently than without support gems AND im abusing it. Its not called abuse, its called usage of game mechanics. The whole point of this thread is to enable support gems for curses, so that we can also support them with gems in order to make them behave completely different aswell, not just our active skills. If all you have to say is that it "would completely change how a skill works" then you didnt quite understand what this thread is about. Last edited by gh0un on Dec 13, 2012, 2:19:25 PM
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" I was replying to the IIQ/IIR question that you had stated, not the support gems for curses as a whole. It would be abused, and allowing such would mean that every class would want to take curses so that they could get their extra IIQ/IIR because of this - which is not what we need. Your point on changing how the skill works is flawed, as you're not changing the function of how a support skill works by adding to an active skill. This would be rewriting EXACTLY how the skill was intended to work with IIQ/IIR. You're not doing that when you use other support gems. There's a reason they made it so you had to kill something with the active skill to trigger the additional IIQ/IIR. Last edited by Elynole on Dec 13, 2012, 2:24:40 PM
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Why would you devote a 4-5l to curses? They're meant to be supplementary to builds.
Among the technical issues, already arising from proliferating IIR/IIQ effects to other skills, minions and PA come to mind, I would say this wouldn't happen. Then you get to the whole "Balance" issue, which boils down to this. I don't even support my curses. At all. If I do, it's with spell totem. My builds 1 shot most things without curses. All your suggestion would do is add a mandatory 2-3l devoted to curses to every serious build. That isn't a good thing. | |
" Are you telling me that curses right now arent mandatory? Curses have absolutely no downside, there is no reason not to use them. They only have benefits, so they are mandatory already. If you dont have ubergear, chance is that you arent going to 1 shot every rare in existence without being at risk of dying. Since most people dont have ubergear and probably will never get it, there is absolutely no reason NOT to use curses, except if you want to play a weaker version of your build. Any serious build right now uses faster casting and increased area of affect on curses anyways, which means we already devote linked items to curses. If you arent using curses in your build, chance is you have ubergear, or you dont have ubergear but dislike the usage of curses, which doesnt make it less mandatory for a "serious" build. Last edited by gh0un on Dec 13, 2012, 6:14:56 PM
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"It's both true, and a valid argument. Support gems are intended to work in a logical and understandable way. The IIQ/IIR supports apply to drops, which happen when monsters are killed, so they support a skill, such that monsters killed by that skill will drop more/better items. "It is when referring to support gems that specifically apply to the event of killing something. "Making a support gem that applies to killing things function without the supported skill killing a thing is not logical. That would be an extremely unintuitive mechanic, because the supports specifically say they work on the supported skill killing something. It is very important that supports work the same way for all skills, not changing their function in unpredictable ways when linked to different kinds of skills. People need to be able to logically tell what will happen and whether a support can apply by reading the description of the skill and support in question. "There is no reasonable way for Fire Penetration to apply to a curse such as elemental weaknesss. Fire penetration specifically means that when the supported skill hits and deals damage, that damage ignores some amount of resistance. That can't apply to a curase because curses don't deal damage. If it worked in a way that could apply to a curse, it would no longer be fire penetration, and then we'd have to make a new support to be fire penetration again to fill the role it does, since the changed fire penetration no longer would. "No. It is not. Power Siphon does not work like a curse. The stats on the IIQ/IIR support gems are entirely implemented around their function, which is to apply to killing monsters. There is nothing in the game that could allow them to work on curses without substantial implementation work. "The point I believe Elynole was trying to make is that in order for those supports to work on curses, you'd have to fundamentally change what those support gems do, to change it to something that works on curses, and in doing so would prevent them working on some of the skills they do work on, which actually kill things.. A Hypothetical IIQ/IIR support that worked by adding a "this drops more/better stuff" modifier for as long as a debuff created by the supported skill was in effect would work on curses, but would not work on a skill like Flicker Strike. There is no way to make one support which does both those things in a reasonable way - they are completely different effects, and thus would need to be different gems, because support gems are supposed to have consistent and understandable effects on all skills they apply to. They would also need to be balanced completely differently. The current "on kill" IIQ/IIR supports are balanced around the fact that they can never stack - a monster can only be killed by one skill, so only one of each support bonus can apply. A monster could have up to 5 curses on it, so if such a support were implemented, it would need to have significantly less effect on drops than the on-kill version. If you want an IIQ/IIR support that applies to curses, then that's a potentially possible thing that you can suggest. if enough people want one, it may well happen, although I personally suspect that due to the reduced effect it would need, confusion with the existing IIQ/IIR supports, and the limited number of skills it could support, it might not be worth making. But modifying the effect of the current support gems tot he point they could apply to curses would remove their ability to work on most of the skills they're intended to work with and with it, most of their functionality. Some supports, by the basic nature of what they do, can't apply to some skills. We could probably change GMP to apply to melee attacks by causing you to attack multiple times in succession, but that's not a good thing to do. GMP does one, clear understandable thing, and doesn't apply to skills for which that thing doesn't make sense. A skill that doesn't fire projectiles can't be supported to increase the number it fires. A skill that doesn't kill anything can't increase the drops of things it kills. If we want the multi-attack support gem, we'll make that, we won't change GMP to do have that as a separate effect on some skills. Same with "things debuffed by the skills drop more when they die" - that's fundamentally not what the IIQ/IIR support gems do, and if we want/need a support which does that, then we'd have to make a support which does. |
