Armour needs a straight up numbers buff!

@mvm
12k armour were obviously pre Granite numbers. But that is because for me worst case scenario would be something like an unexpected crit from chargers or golems. With Granite and Endurance Charges up, things become much more comfortable.

Alira's corpse explosion is no physical damage btw (or only a very small amount of it's damage), it's mostly fire.

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Real_Wolf wrote:

The problem is MVM, you are considering AR in a vaccuum.

Any significant buff of AR also needs a similar buff of EV, as you have to consider that EV is worse vs small hits, and better vs big hits.

So when you make the AR better in all areas, but mostly in the big hits, EV has a lesser margin in which it is 'better' than AR

Evasion needs what buff? evasion does exactly what it says, evade attacks. You can get up to 95% - the cap of it. Its avoidance, not actual mitigation. Evasion is and always will be weak, by its fundamental nature. Block is superior to evasion as an avoidance technique because of it actually blocking reflect (RT / LG evasion never can, and neither can any other build really with very high accuracy, as it checks your own) and the fact block is a fixed % vs all mobs, and you need so much less nodes to max it than evasion, which leaves more space for hp/armor.

To 'buff' evasion you would have to supplement it with armor, and hence armor buff is indirect 'buff' to evasion.

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Lord_of_Error wrote:

@mvm
12k armour were obviously pre Granite numbers. But that is because for me worst case scenario would be something like an unexpected crit from chargers or golems. With Granite and Endurance Charges up, things become much more comfortable.

Alira's corpse explosion is no physical damage btw (or only a very small amount of it's damage), it's mostly fire.

its 50/50 afaik, thats how kripp died, because if it were all fire he would have survived for sure, and he had vuln curse on too iirc

EV is currently superior to armour in the correct playstyle.

Sayingthat evasion is that you evade attacks is wrong. It is mitigation, due to its entropy.

With a 50% evasion, you EVADE 50% of the attacks, thereby your DR is essentially 50% over a timescale of 2 attacks.

Whats more, comparing evasion with block is kidna stupid, because AR/EV/ES can all get block, and you don't have to not have EV in order to get block.

Saying that evasion does exactly what it says, then saying that you want to 'max' evasion, just shows that you don't understand things.

To buff evasion you don't have to supplement it with armour at all, that is just stupidity. Buffing armour in such a way is reducing evasions value compared with armour, when evasion is currently the better for a reasonable number of situations

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mvm199 wrote:

[...]

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Lord_of_Error wrote:

@mvm
12k armour were obviously pre Granite numbers. But that is because for me worst case scenario would be something like an unexpected crit from chargers or golems. With Granite and Endurance Charges up, things become much more comfortable.

Alira's corpse explosion is no physical damage btw (or only a very small amount of it's damage), it's mostly fire.

its 50/50 afaik, thats how kripp died, because if it were all fire he would have survived for sure, and he had vuln curse on too iirc

At the risk of derayling this thread:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KYUm0qM_R0g
No Vulnerability, but -max resists.

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3-5k hits before crits man.

So 4.5-7.5k hits with a standard crit? o_O
Whatever it is dealing that damage, do you really think the armour formula is the problem in such a case? Lowering such extreme spike damage would benefit armour and evasion. Well, or if the spike damage is caused by very unfortunate map mods, and you don't want to deal with it, reroll the map. Although the map system robs us of our hard earned currency, it also allows to set your own difficulty level.

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Real_Wolf wrote:

EV is currently superior to armour in the correct playstyle.

Had this argument / debate a million times before. It is not, evasion is currently garbage. Unless you want to do 66 maps, then its ok i suppose. Evasion = right side of tree = less str and less %hp overall because you take more eva nodes than you would for an es / armor char ... JUST to get to something like 50-60% evade O_O ... result is 2-3k hp unless sick hp / str gear. You NEED 4k hp / es MINIMUM for high end maps ... 2k to take big hits / wtf situations and another 2k to supplant it so you dont panic and can leech / regen / kite it back, or when you take more than 2k in one hit. You evidently have not played some real crazy maps to say evasion is in a right place, or even superior to armor.

And evasion = no IR = less armor = more dmg taken when hit. From someone very experienced and close to level 97, 37 / 70k armor no granite / granite:-

I've been playing with guys who rely on huge Life Leech with Vaal Pact, their chars have had maximum of 18k armour, 20% life leech and close to 30k dps, but they still can't take more than 3 shots from Piety's Ice Shot and it's all because of the low armour they have, it's the burst damage that kills them. And that's Piety with no damage affecting map modifiers.

Evasion cant do big hits, because you get popped like a zit, hence why no one SANE uses evasion on HC. Dont even try argue with this.

You saying evasion is currently superior to armor is retarded, to say the least. Armor is better against both low and big hits. Armor IS actual mitigation.

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Real_Wolf wrote:

Sayingthat evasion is that you evade attacks is wrong. It is mitigation, due to its entropy.

With a 50% evasion, you EVADE 50% of the attacks, thereby your DR is essentially 50% over a timescale of 2 attacks.

fml, back to school pls. Learn difference between 'avoiding' and 'reducing'. If you get 50% evasion and die on the 2nd hit because of lower armor and hp than armor / str / hp stacking build, thats 0% mitigation, 0% DR. Thats called RIP.

You cant call evasion dr or mitigation, the same way you cant call block dr or mitigation.

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Real_Wolf wrote:

Whats more, comparing evasion with block is kidna stupid, because AR/EV/ES can all get block, and you don't have to not have EV in order to get block.

Again, you cant read. My point was block is superior to ev / dodge as avoidance. If you can get max block, there is zero reason in the world to get any evasion. You use so much less points and gear to get max block over 'max' evasion, it isnt even funny. With block you get more hp and armor, and actual reflect protection. Why use evasion then? You'd be insane.

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Real_Wolf wrote:

Saying that evasion does exactly what it says, then saying that you want to 'max' evasion, just shows that you don't understand things.

What? I know evasion varies per monster / level, its also one of its weaknesses. I meant getting 9x on the char screen at level 80+, at least.

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Real_Wolf wrote:

To buff evasion you don't have to supplement it with armour at all, that is just stupidity. Buffing armour in such a way is reducing evasions value compared with armour, when evasion is currently the better for a reasonable number of situations

looool evasion > armor hahaha .... I keep hearing this, then I see things like this: VAAL PACT melee with 44% leech and evasion build and still almost dies to UNMODDED jungle valley. (Or probably died near the end as he cut it off) That crazy life bulb yoyoing ... yeah I dont want to imagine him on an en extra dmg boss dmg vuln carnage map, for example. Look at 08:41 and 09:11 especially. Keep in mind he is a one off character with 75 chaos res. He wouldnt have survived otherwise. And not to mention -res mod is the only dmg mod he has, and its doing nothing because only chaos / physical dmg on spiders and weaver.

http://www.twitch.tv/xdjamkx/b/458242549

What people thought of his build
http://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/518291

Sorry to burst the bubble but evasion characters will always belong to tropical island maps, unless they do something magical to it as a defensive mechanism.

Armor helps with the Ice Shot? I thought it was just elemental. I just don't get hit by it. Works best.

@mvm:
What do you think about lowering very high spike damage? It would be a buff to armour without changing the formula, and evasion would benefit aswell.
Regarding evasion:

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What? I know evasion varies per monster / level, its also one of its weaknesses. I meant getting 9x on the char screen at level 80+, at least.

It varies in the character screen the same way as the estimated damage reduction from armour varies. Higher level enemies = higher accuracy/damage = less chance to evade/damage reduction. This stops once you reach level 77, because that's the highest level for normal enemies in the game currently.

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With block you get more hp and armor, and actual reflect protection.

Any elemental build will get extra reflect protection, even if it would be only 20% chance to evade against yourself. Granted, if you can oneshot yourself, I wouldn't rely on my chance to evade, but I also wouldn't rely on my chance to block then. The reflect protection is especially noticeable if you play a char with projectile attacks, Ondar's Guile really helps. I tested it, Lioneye's Glare (can't evade reflected damage) vs rare Thicket Bow, one volley of LMP + Chain + Lightning Arrow in a group with some Lightning Thorns, the difference is huge.

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looool evasion > armor hahaha .... I keep hearing this, then I see things like this: VAAL PACT melee with 44% leech and evasion build and still almost dies to UNMODDED jungle valley. (Or probably died near the end as he cut it off) That crazy life bulb yoyoing ... yeah I dont want to imagine him on an en extra dmg boss dmg vuln carnage map, for example. Look at 08:41 and 09:11 especially. Keep in mind he is a one off character with 75 chaos res. He wouldnt have survived otherwise. And not to mention -res mod is the only dmg mod he has, and its doing nothing because only chaos / physical dmg on spiders and weaver.

It's because EK is a spell which deals physical damage, even Perpetus in the Ghetto map with his Bear Traps and again EK is a very dangerous enemy for evasion chars. On the other hand, tanking Brutus/Kole and their map variants is easier than it is with armour, provided that you stack life high enough to survive single hits. Ice form Piety? Ondar's Guile. You don't need to stack evasion for that, just use the EV + life nodes at the start of the ranger and add the three nodes up to Revenge of the Hunted. Throw in Enfeeble for the extra fun.

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reboticon wrote:

Armor helps with the Ice Shot? I thought it was just elemental. I just don't get hit by it. Works best.

60% physical like player skill, its average of 3000 dmg (1800 physical / 1200 cold) before crits and mods and curses

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Lord_of_Error wrote:

@mvm:
What do you think about lowering very high spike damage? It would be a buff to armour without changing the formula, and evasion would benefit aswell.

Could be done, but not by much. Automatically reducing monster dmg = no challenge to picking your build / gear based on how much they do. People will always cry for more nerfs, if you keep caving in you end up with weak dmg and everyone stacking dps and just bare enough defenses and nothing else.

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Lord_of_Error wrote:

"

With block you get more hp and armor, and actual reflect protection.

Any elemental build will get extra reflect protection, even if it would be only 20% chance to evade against yourself. Granted, if you can oneshot yourself, I wouldn't rely on my chance to evade, but I also wouldn't rely on my chance to block then. The reflect protection is especially noticeable if you play a char with projectile attacks, Ondar's Guile really helps. I tested it, Lioneye's Glare (can't evade reflected damage) vs rare Thicket Bow, one volley of LMP + Chain + Lightning Arrow in a group with some Lightning Thorns, the difference is huge.

yes it helps a bit on non LG / RT, i didnt disagree. A bow char cant go block true ... but why a bow char would go evasion is beyone me, stack some armor and hp and you are kiting 90% of the time anyway.

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Lord_of_Error wrote:

It's because EK uses a spell which deals physical damage, even Perpetus in the Ghetto map with his Bear Traps and again EK is a very dangerous enemy for evasion chars. On the other hand, tanking Brutus/Kole and their map variants is easier than it is with armour, provided that you stack life high enough to survive single hits. Ice form Piety? Ondar's Guile. You don't need to stack evasion for that, just use the EV + life nodes at the start of the ranger and add the three nodes up to Revenge of the Hunted. Throw in Enfeeble for the extra fun.

weavers ek isnt so strong, its the flicker mobs and her main attacks dealing 2k mixed as 50/50 chaos / physical.

Evasion cant stack as high hp as an armour character (typically marauder). I explained why before. For unmodded carnage / blacksmith, the evasion and mediocre health pool is just ok, and you could say its better than armor (not really vs how i would build at least, tho .... 7 charges, 4k hp, 6% regen, 60k+ armor, max block). If faced with a crazy mod carnage map like vuln extra dmg boss dmg, evasion char will prolly reroll map but armor tank wont ... why? i wonder why ... you tell me :P :P

Ondars guile is nice and cute and all that, but a crit from pietys ice arrow, even unmodded, is very likely to kill an average evasion character, thats the worst example ever.

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Could be done, but not by much. Automatically reducing monster dmg = no challenge to picking your build / gear based on how much they do. People will always cry for more nerfs, if you keep caving in you end up with weak dmg and everyone stacking dps and just bare enough defenses and nothing else.

Well, I thought it would be ok to reduce the highest spikes. This thread suggests buffing armour alone, I don't see how this is in any way better. Essentially a nerf to monster damage, but only for the lucky ones who use armour.

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yes it helps a bit on non LG / RT, i didnt disagree. A bow char cant go block true ... but why a bow char would go evasion is beyone me, stack some armor and hp and you are kiting 90% of the time anyway.

I went for evasion with my most recent char (crit Lightning Arrow) mostly because of Lightning Thorns, perfectly disables this threat. Oh, and I play a life based crit build (closing in on 4.5k life, only dex side of the tree), who doesn't die critting into a Critical Weakness cursed elemental reflect pack on a -25% resists map with additional elemental reflect. Granted, it's a Standard char, but that's what I play now mostly because of friends who don't wanna play hc, and my freaking unstable wireless connection. :(
Nevertheless this allows me to do some experiments, and from what I have seen evasion isn't as bad as many people think it is. Especially combined with a quality Enfeeble you can deal with heavy hitting bosses way better than with the ~10k armour I could maybe achieve otherwise.

Off Topic: One of my experiments in Standard was to do double boss Springs and try to kill the first boss with Infernal Blow, hoping there would be no corpse left. Well, that didn't work out well. At least it was in the name of science.

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7 charges, 4k hp, 6% regen, 60k+ armor, max block

Well, such a build doesn't leave much room for damage. Nothing wrong with it, but obviously a build which only invests a fraction of the points into defense will be worse doing the tanking. ;)