4% Evasion per Frenzy Charge

Hello,

I think this passive skill is not working appropiatly or the description is wrong.

The description is "4% increased evation rating per frenzy charge".

I did the following 2 test with different evation rates (ER). I also write the estimated porcentual evation (E%).

Test 1
ER E%
1817 0.33
2018 0.35 (with 5 frenzy charges)

Evation rate increase by frenzy charge = 2.21%
Porcentual evation increase by frenzy charge = 0.4%

Test 2
3208 0.44
3559 0.46 (with 5 frenzy charges)

Evation rate increase by frenzy charge = 2.19%
Porcentual evation increase by frenzy charge = 0.4%

As you can see, this seems this passive skill is giving less evation than the description says.

I hope you can fix it.
Cheers.

In other words, even with 5 frenzy charges, it's worthless :D

"

anubite wrote:

In other words, even with 5 frenzy charges, it's worthless :D

With 5 frenzy charges it's worth as much as any other 20% increased evasion node on the board.
Given that the average evasion node is slightly above 10% increased evasion, this is efficient for the passive point. :D

If it were to do something else, what would you want it to do?

The numbers given have been given incorrectly, and Mark_GGG is correct.

((3559 - 3208) / (3208 * 5)) * 100 = 2.188% evasion increase per frenzy point, which means one started with around 82.79% increased evasion from dexterity or other passives. I'm probably wrong on the latter guess, though.


Anyways, all of the second nodes for the charge-based skills are extremely lacking. The hybrids get a lousy +1.5 seconds to the duration of a skill that can easily maintain the charges indefinitely given a few seconds. Ranger gets +20% - 30% evasion, Witches get +8 - 12% spell damage, Marauders get 0.8% - 1.2% max life regen. These are all okay effects, but why choose something time-sensitive when there are other passive nodes that give just as much effect at all times, or burn points in a dead-end when there's more powerful stuff in close reach?

Personally, I'd have each one (especially the hybrid ones) do something that could be used to make a strategy of its own.

Here's some examples:

Shadow (frenzy): 3% of physical attack damage is added as chaos damage per charge

Ranger (Frenzy): 4% increased movespeed per charge

Duelist (Frenzy): Increases accuracy by 5% per charge

You know, fun stuff like that instead of 15% longer charge duration. I just think running away is more valuable to a ranger than some charge-dependent evasion, and melee builds could also make use of it to close the gap without spending a lot of points in various 3% movement speed nodes.

Personally, more stuff needs to cost charges because charges require combat to keep up. But hey, beta is beta and we don't really have access to ALL the skills yet.

Crit would be nice, or just "damage". Those would be better IMHO. Maybe specifically "projectile damage".

"

pneuma wrote:

"

anubite wrote:

In other words, even with 5 frenzy charges, it's worthless :D

With 5 frenzy charges it's worth as much as any other 20% increased evasion node on the board.
Given that the average evasion node is slightly above 10% increased evasion, this is efficient for the passive point. :D

It's not efficient. For the Duelist - it's too far away. For the Shadow, it's too far away. For the Ranger, it's in a really annoying spot. If you're going ranged,

http://www.pathofexile.com/passive-skill-tree/AAAAAQIA4CAnKQbARM8UgyuTXsSEcRJoD8eJS1pBSKVcsKt4cRyzeF7KCNty179SOa5phWzcBdzTvTUBJ3ZsIPjr3oEUBe8eEl8=

I think you'll generally start like this. Minus greater impact if you want mostly elemental damage.

If you're going melee,

http://www.pathofexile.com/passive-skill-tree/AAAAAQIA4CAnKQbARM8I23LXv1I5rmmFbNwF3NO9NQEndmwg-OvegRQF7x4SXw2QyGaoFHDxsiFIeg==

In either case, you need to spend 4 points, 3 of which being in attributes, to get there. You don't need 30 more dexterity and early game, you really want that +movement or +attack speed. You also NEED to get to that +18% health bonus asap. Going to get that node puts you in the middle of nowhere, you basically stop after getting 4% evasion per charge, because there is zero incentive to go upwards as a Ranger, due to the layout of the tree (well, unless you desperately want arcing blows).

If you go down south, you save yourself 3-4 points which can be easily spent on passive evasion anyway. The cluster with +30% evasion on 1 node is all you need when you account for +evasion mods on endgame items. A meager 20% bonus to evasion, when you already 118% evasion, isn't worth the short trip.

Now, if you're going out of your way to get 5 frenzy charges, it might be worth spending one point to get the 4% evasion bonus, but even then, it just seems like a trivial effect.

To be honest, I would find the node much more attractive if it gave a bonus to life leech, movement speed, block chance, critical hit, or weapon damage instead. The funny thing about frenzy charges is they kind of bias weapons with high +damage, so having them also grant +damage would make them a little better with weapons that don't have added physical damage.

But, the main reason I find the passive weak is because of its location. The Ranger needs a little rearranging when you consider that area, because you can't get to the right part of the tree if you go up, for many points, while going down is much more attractive. Some of the Shadow's talents are attractive, but they aren't worth spending 11-12 points in dexterity to get to. Thus, if there's nothing on the way to getting +4% evasion per frenzy charge, it's inefficient to get it.

--

For instance, this is my personal idea of an "ideal" Ranger-bow build:

http://www.pathofexile.com/passive-skill-tree/AAAAAQIA4CAnKQbARM8UgyuTXsSEcRJoD8cI23LXv1I5rmmFbNwF3NO9NQEndmwg-OvegRQF7x4SX2Dw1q3t9nkWO5DIZCPvSKxExjLpcYQpHEhZ_PP9aAltUvyEBIX9L_yJaX6WkrJithMV2mmTGuJlGWJT_l_54KhjajwyUll5yWWn7spa415ysrORA4yfC2o6q_InmjrizfJDP36Cee3uNe5g-qqX7ePOlrhC25fj29dgQslwI3fgwAzcYUP-cm10v4up_Bu-mnUqkzWAgiBV9AqYFAQfeR7dvB5SZGXrG3uK1g1Gqg2OtPZV4Qr8Kq9Qw9nh0Xv46I0PKVd9C94zhNccEt0jUXgYYNlJnLzDFxeHlYcskvP-huaFD8RDEMm2fNx4J3mkDUEt8PQitfrNHu8LtXfO0OxP6YMgrrrb4YkUxWo=

You utilize elemental damage the most, grabbing lots of mana, life, attack speed and evasion. There is a ton of incentive for going toward the Duelist as a Ranger, due to how many points you need to use traversing the tree. You spend a minimum number of points in attributes. Altough there are some tempting passives on the far right, they're just too far away. Although there are some tempting passives near the Shadow, they're just too far away.

You get access to everything you could ever want using the following highway:

http://www.pathofexile.com/passive-skill-tree/AAAAAQIACNty179SOa5phWzcBdzTvTUBJ3ZsIPjr3oEUBe8eEl9g8Nat7fZ5FjuQyGQj70is_WgJbYlpfpaSsmK29AqYFAQfeR5Gqg2OCvwqr4yfC2qCee3u

You spend 21 points to get access to EVERY node you could EVER want! It's great.

However, if we try to get 4% frenzy, we need to completely alter our build:

http://www.pathofexile.com/passive-skill-tree/AAAAAQIACNty179SOa5phWzcBdzTvTUBJ3ZsIPjr402lRKSYTeJLEvqpFs0jlGw0FlJj8vejV2_cPg6VdH5llMz03Pd7sMdBqpZCJVkL4MEXIJY6prQN8GAF98VmMeuABwLoba8X_3On893iyCbvU0xB_vx_DqOBgxMUUvkI

30 points, to include frenzy + 4% evasion and get access to the more northern/right nodes; it just feels clunky and ineffective.

Consider this: It costs 2 points, absolutely minimum to activate the passive.

16/2 = 8
20/2 = 10

In a best case scenario, it's "as efficient" as spending two points in evasion. In a worst and more common scenario: you only have 4 frenzy charges -- you're getting 8% evasion per point.

Now, let's not act like frenzy charges are worthless -- they're good. But they're not so good that I NEED that extra charge. In fact, frenzy charges are often overkill if you're building smartly. Killing normal monsters doesn't require the effort of building frenzy charges. Often, high elemental damage insures you're shredding things with an effective, slow use of your mana.

--

Yeah, I wrote way too much here. Sorry :D it's just my opinion. But a measly 20% evasion doesn't seem worth it; at least with the current frenzy mechanics. Maybe with some more active frenzy-based skills/way to expend frenzy charges besides discharge it will be good. But since it's only an additive (and not multiplicative) 20% bonus, I see little point in building around 5 frenzy charges when 3 suffice in almost every situation I can think of.

--

Upon reflection: I actually think you guys should invest more into the charge system. Currently, I feel like there's little point in charges because I cannot really "invest" in them. There is a +1 max charge per class and every "other" class gets a small bonus when they're active.

What we need is for each class to have its own charge cluster!

For instance, for the Ranger, I would say, remove the two nodes for +frenzy charge and +evasion per charge and make two 4-6 node clusters that branch from where +1 frenzy charge exists currently.

Branch 1: +15% frenzy charge duration, +15% frenzy charge duration, +4% more attack speed per frenzy charge, +1 max frenzy charges

Branch 2: +2% evasion per charge, +2% evasion per charge, +4% projectile damage per charge, +2% movement speed per charge, +1.0% life steal per charge [big node]

If you allow us to "spec" into frenzy charges, then it feels a lot better. It feels like my "strategy" is utilizing charges and the bonus effects I have cultivated for them.

I would like some more nodes, like the Wand-Node (5% more Wand-Damage per Power-Charge).

Why don't we have more Weapon-Clusters with Charge-Boni?

"

Emphasy wrote:

I would like some more nodes, like the Wand-Node (5% more Wand-Damage per Power-Charge).

Why don't we have more Weapon-Clusters with Charge-Boni?

Because charges in the past used to have assorted charge bonus passives and more max charges and were incredibly abusive. The current state of charges is somewhat underpowered, and to balance against the abuse case makes it so. We should expect charge bonuses (and charge acquisitions) to come back in time, but they're a bugbear to balance right now.



@anubite: No, the point is efficient.

You're assuming (incorrectly) that builds should be tightly optimized on the tree. The tree is laid out, if anything, to discourage this line of thinking. You're supposed to make choices as you travel through the tree, not have every useful thing for you presented to you in a line.

Under the hood I'm reading that you also have a beef with +10 dex nodes; that those points feel wasted. Strength and Intelligence have very tangible, immediate benefits, to the point where people who have to walk down a 4-node long path through strength don't feel like they're wasting their time.

Lastly, you're saying that Frenzy charges are underpowered. This has more to do with the fact that most people don't use half of their bonus (attackers don't care about the cspd and vice-versa) and that they're the hardest to obtain of the three charges.

All three of those remarks are valid, but that doesn't make the evasion bonus inefficient. Even at 4 charges (three + the one preceding the evasion bonus), it's a 16% evasion node, full stop. If you need an evasion node and you're building frenzy charges already, it's efficient.

I would like to see charge changes soon, but they're in the same bucket as Avatar of Fire and power-charge-on-minion-death (namely, removed until they can be possibly balanced).