Quality on Items is completely meaningless (not Gems - reason inside)

Hi,

before I make my argument let me clear up that I am neither talking about Item Rarity/Item Quantity nor about the quality levels of items (normal/magic/rare/unique). What I am going to talk about and explain, why it is a totally useless concept in Path of Exile, is the %-based quality on items that can be increased by Blacksmith´s Whetstones, Armourer´s Scraps and Glassblower´s Baubles and which makes an item be called superior.

My major gripe with the item quality system is, that it is completely point- and useless for several reasons. The core of the issue lies in a too simple system of item basestats and, in this case, an overdone crafting system.
Now as the title already says I am not talking about gem quality either, because the quality system works differently on gems and actually has a purpose, as I am explaining below.

We need to clarify what quality on items does to see, why it is pointless.

Quality on items increases the base value of the main local itemstat. That means in case of defensive items the value of armour rating, evasion rating, energy shield and shield blockchance, in case of weapons the physical damage (minimum and maximum), in case of a regenerating flask the amount of regeneration and in case of a utility flask the flask duration.

With the afore mentioned orbs the quality can be increased up to a value of 20%. On a white item by 5% each orb, on a blue item by 2% and on a rare/unique by 1% each orb.

All this comes with A) no option for the player to have any influence B) no penalty regarding the item itself and C) hardly any investment involved.

There is no reason to NOT make an item 20% quality. Even if we are talking about a caster weapon, why should you not do it?
The orbs to upgrade the quality on an item are dead cheap (at least if you can get them because noone really bothers selling them anyways) and are mostly wasting stash space.
Now there is the point of item quality increasing the chance of a higher number of sockets/links but at least for me this has never really paid off. On a rare/unique item you have to drop 20 orbs per jeweller/fusing for a slightly increased chance - which you cannot check anywhere and just have to believe that the unknown chance of 5/6 link is increased by an unknown value. On a white item it is 4 orbs, but still you have no idea by how much the unknown chance is increased. So in fact this system is just a sink for otherwise pretty useless orbs.

Now why do I say "useless orbs" if I stated at another poiunt that there is no reason to NOT upgrade item quality? Because the amount of quality increasing orbs you use is much smaller than the number of orbs you find. And once you upgraded every piece of gear you are using, there is no more use for the leftover orbs. They are lying around in the stash and don´t do shit.
This is the reason why quality on gems on the other hand is an interesting concept, because first, the effect is different on most gems and therefor interesting and second, the required orb (Gemcutter´s Prism) is rare enough to provide a real downside, because the investment to upgrade a gem to maximum 20% is relatively high while still being desireable. The player is provided with a choice, while this is not the case for the afore mentioned orbs.

The quality system is obvioulsy inspired Diablo 2 (the devs said on multiple occasions that they were heavily infgluenced by Diablo 2) although this could have been influenced by another game about which I do not know. In Diablo 2 there was no way to change the quality of an item. If you found a 7% item it was fixed and if it was a 15% item it was fixed as well. Therefor, items with maximum quality (15% enhanced damage/defence) were sought after and were, in some cases (like 15/15 6-socketed etheral Berserker Axe), extremely costly baseitems for runewords. Because the quality could not be changed and the chance tgo get a maximum quality item was extremely small quality had a purpose there. Additionally, and here we get to the main issue, as items in Diablo 2 had a range of their base stats, within which they could drop, quality became even more sought after, as it could sometimes turn a mediocre rolled chestpiece into a really good baseitem, especially when upgrading or eth-bugging the item with the Horadric Cube.

In PoE on the other hand quality can be upgraded anytime. In itself it is not a really desireable stat tradewise, is not really rare because whether or not the item drops as superior is totally unimportant as I can make it superior for close to nothing and it provides no real choice and has no real gamechanging impact as all items have the same basestats anyways and therefor have the same stats with 20% quality too.

Solutions:

Either

1. Increase basestats of all items by 20% and remove the three orbs.

This would remove the mess of useless low orbs while providing the same effect. As I pointed out, anyone has these orbs en masse anyways, everyone upgrades the items anyways, so why waste our time? Remove that pointless mechanic!

or

2. Make quality unchangeable and remove the three types of orbs.

Superior items would gain value and having a superior item drop would actually be something interesting and meaningfull.

or

3. Make the three orbs only obtainable by the 20%/40% vendor-recipe.

This way the amount of orbs could be lowered and the players would have to decide if the want to take that dropped 20% white item or a possibly shitty rare to the vendor. This would indirectly increase the value of quality as a stat and make it more desireable and rare.

AND

4. Have the basevalue of items be within a range.

This way quality could make a shitty rolled item a little bit better, while making an already perfectly rolled item be even better. Quality would be more desireable because it could enhance bad gear and good gear alike and compensate for some bad luck while also being the icing on the cake for a perfect drop.

Personally I would like to see a combination of 3. and 4. This would increase the value of quality and have an inherent mechanic and appeal instead of some "slap me on top of everything"-feeling to it.

As of now, quality is redundant, useless, pointless and therefor, sorry to say, looks like lazy design at it´s finest.


best regards

If you play SC or HC, I'll take your whetstones and scraps.
There's no reason to punish players who do have use for these orbs just because you don't see any in them.
Moreover, you can always use them for the linking "recipe". Even if you say we don't know how and if the new system works, since your orbs are just sitting there, why not use them for linking. It's not even as if it were wasting them, since you seem to have no other use for them.

Thank you, Mr Obvious

if I didn't 20% this shield I lose over a 200 armor that then decreases my overall armor quite a bit because of passives



Also 5L this with one fusing because of the new quality bonus to fusings

Agree with OP that quality on items is useless. The jeweler/fusing change was a poor bandaid for this problem.

Make items and gem drop up to 25% (or whatever percentage) but allow them only to be upgraded to 20% by orbs.
That will make 20+% items highly valuable while maintaining the system as it is today.

I did like the random base stats on certain items in D2, but with this much randomness already going on in PoE I find it detrimental to the design philosophy of PoE.
Point in case: In D2 you could spend hundreds of hours hunting that 15% ethereal 5-socket Berserker Axe and then spend two seconds to make it into Death and then Grief*. In PoE it is the opposite. You can obtain the base item you need quite easily and then you can spend hundreds of hours gettintg the perfect stats on said base item.
What you are suggestion is the "worst" of both. First spend hundreds of hours getting the right base item and then spending hundreds of hour crafting that item.


*)ATMA-hacking ftw.

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ampdecay wrote:

if I didn't 20% this shield I lose over a 200 armor that then decreases my overall armor quite a bit because of passives

Proved my point. Thanks! Why should you not make it quality? No reason to not do it.

The thing is, if there was no quality and instead the base armour of the item was increased by 20% there would be exactly no difference except for having less orbs and not have a redundant mechanic involved...

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ampdecay wrote:

Also 5L this with one fusing because of the new quality bonus to fusings

How can you be 100% sure that the 5link only appeared because of the new mechanic? Could it not have happened without that? RNG is RNG is RNG...

"

Mikrotherion wrote:

If you play SC or HC, I'll take your whetstones and scraps.
There's no reason to punish players who do have use for these orbs just because you don't see any in them.
Moreover, you can always use them for the linking "recipe". Even if you say we don't know how and if the new system works, since your orbs are just sitting there, why not use them for linking. It's not even as if it were wasting them, since you seem to have no other use for them.

Thank god this is the Feedback section so we can have an argument, oh wait, you are not interested in discussing... what was the point of your post again?

I am not saying that the way it is now I cannot deal with it, but that the way quality works on items atm has no real purpose. Discussing (!) a mechanic!! I guess you ask everyone who critizises the way Exalteds work to give you their Exalted orbs...

"

sevenOfDiamonds wrote:

What you are suggestion is the "worst" of both. First spend hundreds of hours getting the right base item and then spending hundreds of hour crafting that item.

This is actually true and it looks like I have not thought out my suggestions to full extent.


regards

In races and at the beginning of new leagues, or if you're just a new player: they're really great orbs. Especially whetstones.

"

SL4Y3R wrote:

In races and at the beginning of new leagues, or if you're just a new player: they're really great orbs. Especially whetstones.

Yeah, when you are using your orbs not saving them, races/playing self found, its very valuable to get a strong white, use your two whetstones, and then trans it for a powerful +phys mod

"

Azdrubel wrote:

"

Mikrotherion wrote:

If you play SC or HC, I'll take your whetstones and scraps.
There's no reason to punish players who do have use for these orbs just because you don't see any in them.
Moreover, you can always use them for the linking "recipe". Even if you say we don't know how and if the new system works, since your orbs are just sitting there, why not use them for linking. It's not even as if it were wasting them, since you seem to have no other use for them.

Thank god this is the Feedback section so we can have an argument, oh wait, you are not interested in discussing... what was the point of your post again?

I am not saying that the way it is now I cannot deal with it, but that the way quality works on items atm has no real purpose. Discussing (!) a mechanic!! I guess you ask everyone who critizises the way Exalteds work to give you their Exalted orbs...


regards

Sorry, your post, although quite long, didn't really look like an invitation to discussion. You know, when I see statements such as "XYZ is useless", even if reasons are given, I think the person who posted this won't change their view.

Of course I'd offer anyone who's not happy about exalteds to take care of them, knowing full well that no one would agree, since apart from its actual use it is also a very valuable currency item - unlike scraps and whetstones.

OK, here's my view:
I don't think these orbs are useless, because I use them up all the time and even farm them. That's why I said I'd take them from you if you really see no use whatsoever in them. As you mentioned yourself, there is no reason NOT to use them on every piece of gear. I've seen someone with a +20% tabula rasa - that's quite useless, granted. So, if there is no reason NOT to use them, doesn't that make them inherently useful?
Now, even though we don't know how big the bonus is when linking gear, since you said these orbs are just taking up precious space, why not use them for that purpose?
Moreover, I really cannot follow your point that "the way quality works on items atm has no real purpose". Perhaps I'm dense (unlikely) or to caught up with other things atm (likely), but you yourself pointed out the purpose of quality (i.e. better chances of linking, more damage, es, armour, eva).

"

Mikrotherion wrote:

OK, here's my view:
I don't think these orbs are useless, because I use them up all the time and even farm them. That's why I said I'd take them from you if you really see no use whatsoever in them. As you mentioned yourself, there is no reason NOT to use them on every piece of gear. I've seen someone with a +20% tabula rasa - that's quite useless, granted. So, if there is no reason NOT to use them, doesn't that make them inherently useful?
Now, even though we don't know how big the bonus is when linking gear, since you said these orbs are just taking up precious space, why not use them for that purpose?
Moreover, I really cannot follow your point that "the way quality works on items atm has no real purpose". Perhaps I'm dense (unlikely) or to caught up with other things atm (likely), but you yourself pointed out the purpose of quality (i.e. better chances of linking, more damage, es, armour, eva).

Hi,

first of all, no, you are not dense and I was never trying to say that, sorry if you were under the impression I did...

You got a point about the orbs being inherently useful and my statement of them having no purpose. I think my inability of getting my point across is caused by me being not a native english speaker but whatever...

What I am trying to say is that "quality" on items has nothing to do with anything the word "quality" means, which is "high grade, superiority, excellence". Granted, it does mean other things, but as items with quality are called "superior" I am pretty sure that my understanding of the concept of quality is correct.
When something is "excellent" it should stand out from the mass. But as quality works in PoE, everything can and should be made quality, as it is no problem due to the orbs being extremely common. Quality is not coming with any kind of rarity and that bothers me.

As of now, it feels mandatory to slam orbs on the item you want to use. There is no thought involved, no drawbacks, nothing. The concept of "quality" has nothing to do with the meaning of "quality", hence my argument that there would be no difference at all if the item basestats were simply increased by 20% and the orbs and the quality-concept was removed from the game. If you find a "superior" item you will not even think once (let alone twice) about using it, because EVERYTHING you use has quality anyways (even Tabula Rasa as you pointed out). What has this to do with "outstanding, excellence, superiority"?

The quality orbs are in fact not upgrading quality, they are just "make-baseitem-better-orbs".

And the socket/linking system of increased chance by item-quality is just a sink for those orbs. It´s not like the number of sockets or links was in any way related to the quality of an item. There are dropping "superior" items with one socket and non-quality chestpieces with 6 sockets in maps all the time.

My point is, if quality could not be changed/upgraded (or only to a lower extent than maximum quality) there would be a meaning, a real value, a feeling of real superiority to it. But as it works now, quality does not mean "quality". It is just a mandatory thing to upgrade that stat before using the item.

I hope I was able to frame my gripe with the concept of quality... If not I will wait until someone else figures out how to put it in words.


regards