A Concept to Improve 6-link Crafting

I have mixed feelings on this suggestion, so I don't want to be seen as either supporting nor opposing it.

However, it's worth pointing out that you can't scale up forever; for example, if 4L chance is about 10%, you can't allow 1000% increased chance of 4L, or there would be zero chance of 5/6L. There would have to be some kind of hard cap.

I Like this. I wish there was some kind of progress associated with using fusings, not just a random chance. i hate feeling like i just wasted a bunch of currency and got nothing from it, there are already plenty of ways to do that lol

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MaxTheLimit wrote:

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Demiansky wrote:

I think your response doesn't really address my point. Your making a point about difficulty. Yes, armor scraps and whetstones can be used to improve your odds of getting a 6 link, but I'm not making a case to make fusing easier. I'm making a point about progression. The system currently in place involving armor scraps and whetstones and the system I'm suggesting aren't exclussive. I like that you can use whetstone and armor scraps to improve your odds and I don't think that should change. My point is on the matter of progression. As it stands now with the current system, it is possible to toss 1000 fusings down the drain and have NOTHING to show for it, even though you didn't do anything to play poorly. That is the crux of the problem.

So you are suggesting that both systems remain in place, yes? How would you implement it in a way that DOESN'T make fusing 5 links to 6 sockets easier?

Not dumping on the idea, just wondering.

Further to question it, if you plan for the existing system and the fusing quality to remain, would they be stackable? Would you be able to increase your odds by adding fusing and setting the quality of an item to 20%? If so, is your idea to balance the difficulty of fusing 6 sockets, to scale back the bonus to fusing for quality, and shift this partially over to your 'fusing quality'?

Would this also create a 'jewelers quality'? Would the number of jewelers orbs spent go towards a higher quality result for sockets?

It makes it easier in the distance, not immediately.
A single orb would have the same chances as it has now.

The "difficulty" of getting 6-links or sockets is fine for any 1 orb individually.
It is NOT fine when you consider people dumping dozens or even hundreds of orbs and getting nothing.

So this system provides a negligible increase in the short run, and a MUCH needed increase in the long run.

Because let's be honest:
Let's assume you have 2% chance to get 6-link for an item with a certain Quality.
This means you have 1 in 25 chances to get the 6-link.

Let's say you failed the first try.
Now you still have 1 in 25 chance to get the 6-link. But this means you actually have 1 in 26 chance considering your total attempts.
Let's say you failed 10 times in a row.
NOw you still have 1 in 25 chance. But this means you actually have 1 in 35 chance considering the total attempts.

You can keep failing forever.
This is the problem.
Your effort - your dedication - is not given a value.

Player A can be bad, farm little and get it on the first try.
Player B can be good, farm alot and never get it.
How can this be called competition?

That's why a small increase in the odds as you use orbs, is in order.
You can still get lucky.
But the game should have a limit to how unlucky you can get with something that has nothing to do with your skill.
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A question:
How can you say "it would make it easier"; if the results do not match the mathematical prediction?
The system is completely random, and luck alone dictates whether 1 week of farming is worth an end game item, or absolutely nothing.

Even if you have 2% chance to get 6-links/sockets, there are players who - based on results - seem to have 10%, and others who seem to have 0%.
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Scrotie, you can scale it forever, as long as you dictate that higher slot chances always supercede lower slot chances, such that excess chance in lower slots is "pushed off the table".

Example - after a certain amount of Orbs used, you reach 1.5x, 5x and 10x multiplier.
XL - Base - 1.5x - 5.0x - 10.0x
6L - 002% - 003% - 010% - 020%
5L - 010% - 015% - 050% - 080%
4L - 030% - 045% - 040% - 000%
3L - 050% - 037% - 000% - 000%
2L - 006% - 000% - 000% - 000%
1L - 002% - 000% - 000% - 000%

So it can indeed stack forever.

+1

I like this a lot better because:

With the current system, I'm always thinking: Why should I use those scraps and whetstones if there is a big chance I will fail and end up with nothing again? If the item is rare it would still take a lot of time getting the items to 20% quality each time.
Even if I do my best I fail and I end up with nothing.

I love your idea.

Worth a bump, implement please :D

This kind of system should be applied to EVERYTHING in this game.
A total RNG simply ruins the game.

I've played since alpha and this is the single reason I end up quitting over and over.
I support them and have done so twice by purchasing closed beta and now open beta packs.

Its a decision I will regret if they dont fix their alpha-stage implementation of a loot system that was broken to begin with and they neglected to look at it again to fix it for a production-ready game.

Its getting to that point now guys.
How long is this "beta" going to last?
If you want to produce a game - produce a game. You cant publish a game with a total RNG the way you've implemented it, thats just amateur - Period.

Everything in the RNG should implement a "scaling up" factor:
Chances: increase odds of getting higher tier rarity each time used (eg: magic to rare to unique).
Jewelers: same exact increase of # of sockets per jewl used as this suggestion on fuses.
Fuses: the OP already nailed it.
Chaos: increase the roll modifier to cap out at the ilvl potential by a very small fraction each time used, eg if ilvl 59 item has a cap of 38% on a resist roll, each time chaos is used on it, it has an 0.0x% bonus to capping at its potential maximum.
Alteration: same as chaos, it would increase the same "mod" property of the item (its "roll bonus modifier") but of course by quite a bit less (16 alts = chaos, so 1/16th of the amount increase that a chaos would make)
Divine: same deal here, an even bigger increase to cap out the modifier than chaos.
Blessed: same yet again, but this would have its own modifier "native bonus modifier" different from the random properties one.

This would basically add:
4 "mod" values to each and every item:
1) Fuse chance bonus
2) Socket chance bonus
3) Random modifier roll bonus
4) Native modifier roll bonus

Scenario:
"WTS <link:Titan Greaves> RBonus+12%, 4L +life +dualres"

What did this guy do?
* Lets say the item started as 1 socket.

* He jeweled it at 20% quality 10 times resulting in 0.5% increase to socket-increase-bonus-chance modifier per jewel. On the 11th jewel, it had a +5% chance to roll an extra socket. It rolled 3 in the RNG, the 5% bonus to roll an extra kicked in, and it rolled 4 sockets.

* He then fused it 25 times, each time increasing the fuse-increase-bonus-chance modifier per fuse by 0.5% per fuse. This resulted on the 26th fuse in a 12.5% increased chance to add a link. It rolled 3-links, and the 12.5% bonus rolled positive, adding a fourth link. It is now 4L.

* He chaosed it 20 times, resulting in 0.5% bonus each time to the modifier-roll-bonus. For a total of 10% "R-Mod Bonus". On the 20th chaos he rolled stats that he liked. So he kept it.

* He divined the boots twice, increasing the "R-Mod Bonus" by 2.5% each time, resulting on the 2nd roll a 12.5% RBonus which pumped up his stat rolls in the RNG by 12.5%. Resulting in rolls that he liked.

He now has spent a LOT of currency for a simple pair of boots. Which is very common for all of us. Yet he didnt waste it to futility. Each currency used made him accomplish something towards the value of this item. He didnt waste his hard earned currency, which = his hard earned time playing the game.
Wasting our time when we play a game achieving nothing, is the single #1 way for us to hate your game.
In the end, players will balance the good and bad, and decide whether to stick with a game or not.
Longevity in a game, eg: its ability to continue being played years after release (like your intended goal is with PoE "we want to make a game that is played long after its release, like Diablo and Starcraft") -- is all about creating at atmosphere where "currency" is continually sunk, to try new things, and achieve new things - but achievement is always possible, PROGRESS is always rewarded by time spent playing.

Your current RNG removes, completely, the PROGRESS element. Resulting in, very real players, who spend allot of very real time, and get NOWHERE.
It then also rewards players who put little to no time, who also many of which wont even stick around long, rewarding them with "I win" drops and items and crafting results.

There is a two-sided coin to this story.

Take player 1 who has played for 2 years now and played 8 hours a day:
* Burns 95% of his currency trying to 6L his uniques and gear which makes his builds work the way they should.
* Is an expert char-builder, knows the game mechanics inside and out, has done multiple of your "Build of the Month" guides in closed beta which other players follow still to this day.
* Still doesnt have a 6L to speak of.
* Has never looted a mirror, or even an exalted orb.
* Is still dirt poor with less than 15ex in total currency including 20% gems --- with maybe 25 to 30ex in total currency + gear value. This player has played on avg 5 hours a day since open beta started. Normal players at that tier have 100ex+ in currency/gear by now.

Who is this player? He is very real. He is a friend of mine. I wont name him, but rest assured this guy exists and there are many just like him. Most of them have probably quit of course. The only reason he hasnt is because we wont let him :)

Take player 2 who started PoE about 2 months ago. Only really wanted to "check it out". Played one char, which was of course gimped and worthless by about level 25 - he already had 5gcp and an ex in the bank by that time.
Then a race came up and he decided to try it. Made a level 1 ranger. Went into start zone. Killed 10 mobs, and a mirror dropped. "Cool" he thought - he didnt even know what it was.
He kept playing, found another 2 exalts in terraces and mud flats before he was even level 5, and then he died.
Remade another char, didnt really finish much in that race, so lets skip that part and fast forward a day or two when he was playing his gimped level 25 char trying to buy some gear, and he heard in trade chat something about a mirror. He asked how much it was worth, and people started telling him its the rarest item, etc etc.
He said he had one.
Everyone freaked.
He got 50 exalts for it.
He bought all the uniques in the game, bunch of godly gear, even paid 1ex to get rushed to merc (thats how I met him).
Then he even paid a group to grind him up to 70+ in docks then maps, and what is he doing now?
Well, he essentially played the game for 2 weeks - didnt learn a single thing about it, and "won". He can buy whatever he wants, has a bank full of crafting gear, he already 6L a few items and bought a few other 6L.
The game to him is over.
What else does he have to do?
He did everything in a matter of weeks.

Your RNG ruined the game experience for him by making it too easy.
Thats actually why he quit. "PoE is too easy" he said...."bye see you later, I'm going back to Diablo III, I still need to craft some better rings over there".

Both of these stories are very real and are actually happening, right now, allot more than you think.

In fact - most of us if not all of us can associate with player #1 or player #2 in this post.

This is all due to your little RNG which is a quickly implemented loot system, poorly thought out, quickly designed, and neglected because you thought "well, it works so lets just leave it".
Sorry GGG - but your RNG doesnt work. Its ruining your game experience for actually the majority of players.

I hope you listen to us now because later we might not be here anymore.

For me?
I just bought a 999% facebreaker. For 5gcp. Thought that was a decent enough deal. Ended up blowing 86 fuses + 400 armor scraps to get it 4L. (this of course doesnt even compare to the 1200 fuses I blew to try and 6L my armor in closed beta --- and still never got it: thanks for that GGG).
That was more then I paid for the gloves themselves.
I plan on not using my currency to craft anymore, and that really ruins the game for me, because the crafting system in PoE is one of the 2 main reasons I play. The other is my love of the character tree and ability to make so many cool builds.

When I've made all the builds I want to make though, if I cant find the gear I need buyable from other players, I will end up quitting --- because I'm done crafting. Its just a waste of my time. Sortof a bummer - and I dont mind using more currency to craft than I would to buy the same gear, but when I blow 10x the value in currency and STILL DONT GET the same gear I can just buy?
What the heck is the point of your crafting system?

Torture?????

I will buy what I need from now on.

bump.

this has been posted before, by many people, and Ive argued against it.


However, I was a complete idiot, hands up, moron here >>>>>>>>>


As has been said, we dont want to go overboard here and make getting a 6 link anything but an extremely uncertain risk that is unlikely to happen fuse by fuse, but the current system with socketing is just a horrible, demotivating time killer that can ruin the game for people leaving them unable to use their characters and gear they have already acquired with no hope of ever fixing the situation. I just spent 5 hours farming orbs, trading them all for the ones I need and then failed to get my shit working, and Ive got exactly the same chance of the enxt 5 hours being the same thing, and the next, and the next... it makes me walk away from the game regularly, I was in the zone hungry to play and then, fuck, fuck this game Im going to watch tv. Its not healthy to have players feel like that multiple times a week.

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Snorkle_uk wrote:

this has been posted before, by many people, and Ive argued against it.


However, I was a complete idiot, hands up, moron here >>>>>>>>>


As has been said, we dont want to go overboard here and make getting a 6 link anything but an extremely uncertain risk that is unlikely to happen fuse by fuse, but the current system with socketing is just a horrible, demotivating time killer that can ruin the game for people leaving them unable to use their characters and gear they have already acquired with no hope of ever fixing the situation. I just spent 5 hours farming orbs, trading them all for the ones I need and then failed to get my shit working, and Ive got exactly the same chance of the enxt 5 hours being the same thing, and the next, and the next... it makes me walk away from the game regularly, I was in the zone hungry to play and then, fuck, fuck this game Im going to watch tv. Its not healthy to have players feel like that multiple times a week.

I rest on your face GGG. Errr I mean I rest my case.

If asked, 90%+ of your playerbase who have played over a few months will say this same thing now.

The blind diehard fans of this brutal RNG crafting system are even waking up and smelling that there's something rotten in the garbage and needs to be taken out.

BUMP!