Inconsistencies in Combat Design

Hello,

there are all the little details in combat design that seem to want to make the game more fun, but are maybe not properly executed.

There is for example the ice nova or cold nova spell or whatever it is called that knocks back enemies "a bit". And by "a bit" I mean very little. It's barely noticable, but I realized that it might be enough for you to dodge some attacks if you spam it.

I really want to use the systems properly and play in a tactical manner and it seems to me that the game wants to allow me to do that. But it also seems that the reward for playing in a way that might be called optimal, like using your skills in the most efficient way and not getting hit by enemies by dodging attacks, etc. It's just not worth it. You can as well just, most of the time, not really pay attention to those things and progress.

Which is a shame. It also means the mobs and the player are probably not properly balanced, yet. I realized that when playing PoE 1 again, where I felt that each hit from the mobs would make me have to react in some way, usually by using my flasks. Well, at least the game makes me pay attention. And in a good way. That is to be mentioned, because games can make you pay attention in a tedious way as well. I get it, PoE 1 has years of polish. But I have to mention it, because it seems lacking here.

I am just paying attention to this again, because I am playing rn and I have this quarterstaff autoattack on leftclick and a windblast on right click and a mace and shield as a secondary weapon set and boneshatter equipped.

And I am trying to use some kind of stun mechanics here. Maybe some synergy to be gained from using quarterstaff and mace together to stun enemies, but franky, sometimes I just tend to autoattack everything and it works just as well. And I also don't get why I should use bone shatter. Just autoattack, hell, put magnified effect on the autoattack so you hit whole groups of mobs and done. I even put +atk speed on the boneshatter, because it wasn't really viable without it and now it is just barely viable. I kinda like this idea that you need to make skills viable through support gems. That's really smart. But maybe not properly balanced, yet.

I get it, autoattack needs to have most dps. I guess you guys learned from how PoE 1 did it "wrong". I get the decision behind this. But it does seem like things are not properly balanced yet to make this awesome tactical gameplay where you try not to get hit really viable. I could as well just stand in groups of mobs and autoattack, like I said. I am level 19 right now, just to mention.

Sure, if I play my huntress at level 82, if I don't dodge attacks I just die immediately. And that can also become tedious. There is this fine line I think where the game neither tedious nor too easy and it's really important you guys get this right, I think.

There is this notion I am thinking about, that there isn't much necessity to play well when going through the campaign, except for boss fights. Most of the challenge is seemingly based on progressing through the content faster. And I am kind of irked by that, because games should be about challenging you in a way that you either play correctly or you fail. Making the challenge about being faster is kind of an odd game design choice, imo.



In kind regards

Sometime I tought the same way you...

My conclusion was it's new combat thinking with poe1 model, and that's the reason it don't work as it should work

In time (and with hope) GGG will balance that out

The more "meaningful", slower-paced combat becomes nonsensical once you put enough enemies on the screen.

This is why people end up resorting to cheesier 1-2 button builds late game, even though GGG has explicitly stated they wanted to move away from this.

Breach and Delirium directly contradict the new combat philosophy.

Ultimately, I don't think it's a truly binary situation (i.e. either choosing "meaningful combat" or screen-clearing/blasting). There is a middle ground somewhere. If there wasn't a middle ground, you would be fighting the same mob density at end-game that you have in the beginning of Act 1, which I don't think anyone wants.

They probably could find a middle ground where most builds rely on 2-ish skills for their main rotation. I tried Lighting Spear+Primal Strike Amazon in SSF this league, and it appears to fit this middle ground pretty well (Lightning Spear to Shock and for clearing trash, Primal Strike to consume shock and on tougher enemies).

But there are still issues.

With Huntress for example, I love the idea of parry, but the reality is making my primary damage output reliant on waiting for a mob to attack me feels terrible, especially when mobs are different.

Works great when I have plenty of melee or projectile attack mobs, but how is this supposed to be viable when I'm facing caster mobs or bosses?

I had a similar experience with warrior back when the game launched. So many cool combat options, but as I progressed, they ended up being way too slow for the realities of combat, so I made the build a lot simpler than it was apparently intended to be.

Feels pretty disappointing.

In terms of solutions, I think if you are going to have an ability or combination of abilities requiring a fairly intricate setup process before the payoff, you need to compensate for that in other areas.

With the huntress parry, give me the ability to deal effectively with casters that I can't parry.

With the warrior, don't make me wind up a three-skill combo just to kill the 3 stragglers that survived my mega slam combo. (also make armour viable).

I know the generic and supportable default attacks are supposed to help here, but something still feels off.

"

natefactor07#6095 wrote:

The more "meaningful", slower-paced combat becomes nonsensical once you put enough enemies on the screen.

This is why people end up resorting to cheesier 1-2 button builds late game, even though GGG has explicitly stated they wanted to move away from this.

Breach and Delirium directly contradict the new combat philosophy.

Ultimately, I don't think it's a truly binary situation (i.e. either choosing "meaningful combat" or screen-clearing/blasting). There is a middle ground somewhere. If there wasn't a middle ground, you would be fighting the same mob density at end-game that you have in the beginning of Act 1, which I don't think anyone wants.

They probably could find a middle ground where most builds rely on 2-ish skills for their main rotation. I tried Lighting Spear+Primal Strike Amazon in SSF this league, and it appears to fit this middle ground pretty well (Lightning Spear to Shock and for clearing trash, Primal Strike to consume shock and on tougher enemies).

But there are still issues.

With Huntress for example, I love the idea of parry, but the reality is making my primary damage output reliant on waiting for a mob to attack me feels terrible, especially when mobs are different.

Works great when I have plenty of melee or projectile attack mobs, but how is this supposed to be viable when I'm facing caster mobs or bosses?

I had a similar experience with warrior back when the game launched. So many cool combat options, but as I progressed, they ended up being way too slow for the realities of combat, so I made the build a lot simpler than it was apparently intended to be.

Feels pretty disappointing.

In terms of solutions, I think if you are going to have an ability or combination of abilities requiring a fairly intricate setup process before the payoff, you need to compensate for that in other areas.

With the huntress parry, give me the ability to deal effectively with casters that I can't parry.

With the warrior, don't make me wind up a three-skill combo just to kill the 3 stragglers that survived my mega slam combo. (also make armour viable).

I know the generic and supportable default attacks are supposed to help here, but something still feels off.

To be honest I feel that I had most of your concerns as well, but kind of overcame them. For example, I am glad you cannot parry the casters, because that makes you focus them, maybe take a skill like a leap to get to them in order to kill them first, maybe invest in more movement speed and play a more agile projectile based build to avoid their attacks and spells, and so on and so forth.

I think what the designers of the combat system did really well is there not being a one skill solution for every problem. It shows in every part of combat and I think it's making the combat great, if you start understanding it which to be honest with you took me some time.

I am playing right now and I have the feeling that combat is supposed to be this methodical, almost rhythmical experience, if you do it right and if you do understand the mechanics of the systems involved, which apparently you need to, in order to achieve this kind of experience.

But sometimes, when it feels like you understood the mechanics and are applying them well through execution and through preparation and your build, it feels great. And I think maybe this is why so many people think this game is not fun, because they don't invest the time to learn the systems and adapt to them, because they are different than in other ARPGs.

Anyway, I am still not quite sure what to think of some skills like frost nova only having a little bit of knockback. It's a skill that I don't really want to spam, but it kind of wants me to, because the knockback isn't going to do much, if you don't spam it.

What I like the most about the combat system is that I have to figure out how to make skills viable, like going: "Well my autoattack does a 100 dps, frost nova only does like 20 dps. I could put this support gem on the frost nova, that doubles the dps. Then I'm at 40 dps. To be worth using it instead of my autoattack I'd need to hit three mobs at the same time to do more dps.", and so on. I really like this kind of design.

But there are just some skills that feel undertuned. But, like I said, maybe I don't understand them well enough to judge.

"

Naharez#3496 wrote:

"

natefactor07#6095 wrote:

The more "meaningful", slower-paced combat becomes nonsensical once you put enough enemies on the screen.

This is why people end up resorting to cheesier 1-2 button builds late game, even though GGG has explicitly stated they wanted to move away from this.

Breach and Delirium directly contradict the new combat philosophy.

Ultimately, I don't think it's a truly binary situation (i.e. either choosing "meaningful combat" or screen-clearing/blasting). There is a middle ground somewhere. If there wasn't a middle ground, you would be fighting the same mob density at end-game that you have in the beginning of Act 1, which I don't think anyone wants.

They probably could find a middle ground where most builds rely on 2-ish skills for their main rotation. I tried Lighting Spear+Primal Strike Amazon in SSF this league, and it appears to fit this middle ground pretty well (Lightning Spear to Shock and for clearing trash, Primal Strike to consume shock and on tougher enemies).

But there are still issues.

With Huntress for example, I love the idea of parry, but the reality is making my primary damage output reliant on waiting for a mob to attack me feels terrible, especially when mobs are different.

Works great when I have plenty of melee or projectile attack mobs, but how is this supposed to be viable when I'm facing caster mobs or bosses?

I had a similar experience with warrior back when the game launched. So many cool combat options, but as I progressed, they ended up being way too slow for the realities of combat, so I made the build a lot simpler than it was apparently intended to be.

Feels pretty disappointing.

In terms of solutions, I think if you are going to have an ability or combination of abilities requiring a fairly intricate setup process before the payoff, you need to compensate for that in other areas.

With the huntress parry, give me the ability to deal effectively with casters that I can't parry.

With the warrior, don't make me wind up a three-skill combo just to kill the 3 stragglers that survived my mega slam combo. (also make armour viable).

I know the generic and supportable default attacks are supposed to help here, but something still feels off.

To be honest I feel that I had most of your concerns as well, but kind of overcame them. For example, I am glad you cannot parry the casters, because that makes you focus them, maybe take a skill like a leap to get to them in order to kill them first, maybe invest in more movement speed and play a more agile projectile based build to avoid their attacks and spells, and so on and so forth.

I think what the designers of the combat system did really well is there not being a one skill solution for every problem. It shows in every part of combat and I think it's making the combat great, if you start understanding it which to be honest with you took me some time.

I am playing right now and I have the feeling that combat is supposed to be this methodical, almost rhythmical experience, if you do it right and if you do understand the mechanics of the systems involved, which apparently you need to, in order to achieve this kind of experience.

But sometimes, when it feels like you understood the mechanics and are applying them well through execution and through preparation and your build, it feels great. And I think maybe this is why so many people think this game is not fun, because they don't invest the time to learn the systems and adapt to them, because they are different than in other ARPGs.

Anyway, I am still not quite sure what to think of some skills like frost nova only having a little bit of knockback. It's a skill that I don't really want to spam, but it kind of wants me to, because the knockback isn't going to do much, if you don't spam it.

What I like the most about the combat system is that I have to figure out how to make skills viable, like going: "Well my autoattack does a 100 dps, frost nova only does like 20 dps. I could put this support gem on the frost nova, that doubles the dps. Then I'm at 40 dps. To be worth using it instead of my autoattack I'd need to hit three mobs at the same time to do more dps.", and so on. I really like this kind of design.

But there are just some skills that feel undertuned. But, like I said, maybe I don't understand them well enough to judge.

Yeah, I think you're on to something. They've setup a nice variety of skills and different combat systems to tinker with already, and I don't think most people aren't taking the time to tinker with the systems and learn them.

I think most players - probably some of the loudest complainers online - are people who want the simplistic 1-button screen-clear gameplay, and that's not what's on offer with POE2.

Making the conscious decision to avoid build guides has allowed me to enjoy the game a lot more. Also, playing SSF has forced me to find something viable with the gear I have instead of gear I can go buy with a divine orb or two.

Completely changes how you enjoy the game. It's more methodical and less about instant gratification, which is why I think a lot of people don't like it.

Shame, because there is more reward in figuring things out on your own.

Although I will say, they need to make some aspects of the game more friendly to casual players (I have a separate post I made today about this). I shouldn't have to grind for 1000 hours to find a decent variety of build-enabling unique items if I'm playing SSF, for example.

"

natefactor07#6095 wrote:

"

Naharez#3496 wrote:

"

natefactor07#6095 wrote:

The more "meaningful", slower-paced combat becomes nonsensical once you put enough enemies on the screen.

This is why people end up resorting to cheesier 1-2 button builds late game, even though GGG has explicitly stated they wanted to move away from this.

Breach and Delirium directly contradict the new combat philosophy.

Ultimately, I don't think it's a truly binary situation (i.e. either choosing "meaningful combat" or screen-clearing/blasting). There is a middle ground somewhere. If there wasn't a middle ground, you would be fighting the same mob density at end-game that you have in the beginning of Act 1, which I don't think anyone wants.

They probably could find a middle ground where most builds rely on 2-ish skills for their main rotation. I tried Lighting Spear+Primal Strike Amazon in SSF this league, and it appears to fit this middle ground pretty well (Lightning Spear to Shock and for clearing trash, Primal Strike to consume shock and on tougher enemies).

But there are still issues.

With Huntress for example, I love the idea of parry, but the reality is making my primary damage output reliant on waiting for a mob to attack me feels terrible, especially when mobs are different.

Works great when I have plenty of melee or projectile attack mobs, but how is this supposed to be viable when I'm facing caster mobs or bosses?

I had a similar experience with warrior back when the game launched. So many cool combat options, but as I progressed, they ended up being way too slow for the realities of combat, so I made the build a lot simpler than it was apparently intended to be.

Feels pretty disappointing.

In terms of solutions, I think if you are going to have an ability or combination of abilities requiring a fairly intricate setup process before the payoff, you need to compensate for that in other areas.

With the huntress parry, give me the ability to deal effectively with casters that I can't parry.

With the warrior, don't make me wind up a three-skill combo just to kill the 3 stragglers that survived my mega slam combo. (also make armour viable).

I know the generic and supportable default attacks are supposed to help here, but something still feels off.

To be honest I feel that I had most of your concerns as well, but kind of overcame them. For example, I am glad you cannot parry the casters, because that makes you focus them, maybe take a skill like a leap to get to them in order to kill them first, maybe invest in more movement speed and play a more agile projectile based build to avoid their attacks and spells, and so on and so forth.

I think what the designers of the combat system did really well is there not being a one skill solution for every problem. It shows in every part of combat and I think it's making the combat great, if you start understanding it which to be honest with you took me some time.

I am playing right now and I have the feeling that combat is supposed to be this methodical, almost rhythmical experience, if you do it right and if you do understand the mechanics of the systems involved, which apparently you need to, in order to achieve this kind of experience.

But sometimes, when it feels like you understood the mechanics and are applying them well through execution and through preparation and your build, it feels great. And I think maybe this is why so many people think this game is not fun, because they don't invest the time to learn the systems and adapt to them, because they are different than in other ARPGs.

Anyway, I am still not quite sure what to think of some skills like frost nova only having a little bit of knockback. It's a skill that I don't really want to spam, but it kind of wants me to, because the knockback isn't going to do much, if you don't spam it.

What I like the most about the combat system is that I have to figure out how to make skills viable, like going: "Well my autoattack does a 100 dps, frost nova only does like 20 dps. I could put this support gem on the frost nova, that doubles the dps. Then I'm at 40 dps. To be worth using it instead of my autoattack I'd need to hit three mobs at the same time to do more dps.", and so on. I really like this kind of design.

But there are just some skills that feel undertuned. But, like I said, maybe I don't understand them well enough to judge.

Yeah, I think you're on to something. They've setup a nice variety of skills and different combat systems to tinker with already, and I don't think most people aren't taking the time to tinker with the systems and learn them.

I think most players - probably some of the loudest complainers online - are people who want the simplistic 1-button screen-clear gameplay, and that's not what's on offer with POE2.

Making the conscious decision to avoid build guides has allowed me to enjoy the game a lot more. Also, playing SSF has forced me to find something viable with the gear I have instead of gear I can go buy with a divine orb or two.

Completely changes how you enjoy the game. It's more methodical and less about instant gratification, which is why I think a lot of people don't like it.

Shame, because there is more reward in figuring things out on your own.

Although I will say, they need to make some aspects of the game more friendly to casual players (I have a separate post I made today about this). I shouldn't have to grind for 1000 hours to find a decent variety of build-enabling unique items if I'm playing SSF, for example.

I don't know. I feel the rarity of uniques is good as it is. Please don't make them drop more often, because I have played Diablo 4 and being presented with so many possibilities at once kind of makes the drops irrelevant. It can funnel you into that kind of behaviour where you just want to try out new builds and are never happy with what you currently have. I like unique drops being the cherry on top, not the main focus of the game.

I also play SSF right now and I don't follow any guides. I'm trying to understand the design of the game and I feel that makes me be able to understand better how to play.