Help with scaling damage

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Hitman473107#7521 wrote:

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Nothing you have scales bleeding.

I respectfully disagree. All physical damage bonus and all damage with ailments supports bleeding. The Vulnerability curse helps with bleeding. The Gladiator class helps with bleeding. Even attack speed helps with bleeding, because you get a higher chance to apply bleeding before the old one expires. It's all focused on phys dmg and bleeding.

It's focused on phys damage, but not focused on bleed at all. Bleed is just a not entirely useless extra in your character's build; rather than a Bleed build, it's just a build that has bleed.

For example, not all physical damage bonuses apply to bleed. Bastion Breaker and the small passives in its wheel are bonuses to Attack Physical Damage, which Bleed is not--it's Damage over Time, and Damage over Time is inherently neither Attack Damage nor Spell Damage. This also means that while Gladiator's Perseverance doesn't apply to bleed, the small passives leading up to it apply to bleed due to the separate modifier applying to damage with ailments from attacks.
The implicit "increased Melee damage" on your Spiked Gloves also doesn't apply to bleed, because Melee implies Attack.

Overall, looking at the numbers PoB gives on your build without doing further configuration...you have ~970% increased damage for attack hits, and ~720% increased damage for Bleed. So, about a quarter of your bonuses don't apply to bleed. Maybe there's a chance that your misconception stemmed from info for PoE2, which has some systems that work differently from PoE1 despite having the same name?



If you wanted to have Bleed to be your primary source of damage, you're also missing two factors: damage over time multipler, and "Bleed deals damage faster".

For an example of dot multi, as well as part of why your build is getting criticism, let's compare your amulet to an amulet I used last league on a bleed build:

Natural Hierarchy gives you a total of 50% increased physical damage. With PoB showing ~920% increased damage for phys attack hits, and ~670% increased damage for bleed, equipping Natural Hierarchy increases your attack hit damage by (50 / 1020) = ~4.9%, and your bleed damage by (50 / 770) = ~6.5%.
My amulet, on top of the dot multi that'd just be 24% more bleed damage until you add other dot multi modifiers to your build, would add life, resistance, and flat phys damage--on top of providing attributes that should free up three of the passives from your tree that are invested into +30 Dex or +30 Int. It was also cheap to add an anointment to it, because it isn't corrupted.

"Bleed deals damage faster" would increase the damage dealt per second of bleed in exchange for reducing the duration. Since bleed can only deal damage with 1 stack at a time, as long as you're able to maintain uptime on the bleed, this can be considered as another type of "deal more damage".

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Hitman473107#7521 wrote:

Speed helps with overall damage and increases your chances to apply bleeding. Why would I focus on extra chances to bleed, when I can have two bonuses from extra speed, like I said? Bleed lasts a couple of seconds, so there's no need to have 100% chance to bleed. If bleed lasts 4 seconds and you have 1 attack per second, you need only a 25% chance to apply bleeding, in order to have a continuous flow, because bleed doesn't stack. Tap out if you want to, I came here to reach a conclusion, not to accept everything someone tells me. Give me a link to PoE Planner for the passive tree that you're talking about, if you want me to check it out. I had no problems with that website.

Speed does help with consistancy, but not so much so that it's better at the job than bleed chance.

The primary concern for me would be instances like boss fights, where I'd moving around to stay out of boss attacks rather than just depending on block to save my life. Since the uptime on attacking is lowered in order to move around, not having 100% chance to cause bleed would mean running into time spent not doing damage because I have to root myself for a second to try to cause bleeding, and can't even confirm if I succeeded in applying bleed--which would lead to times where bleed isn't applied.

Chance to bleed is also huge for map clear consistancy. You want to be able to run up to a group of enemies, slap them once, and get the bleed and explosions. Having to manually cast Vulnerability on an enemy group (.4s cast time), then swing twice at the enemies (.45s * 2 attack time), and still have a significant chance of not inflicting bleed sounds...cumbersome.

On top of that, there's a stat that PoB calculates for you in the Calcs tab: Average Bleed Roll. At any time, only the most effective bleed on an enemy is dealing damage--but you can still apply more bleeds to the enemy, so there's no downtime on bleed when the most damaging instance expires. Being able to reapply bleed at a higher rate than it expires also means that you'll deal more bleed DPS on average, because you'll have a much lower chance of being stuck at a min roll bleed for a few seconds. This value also matters more if the build is using Ryslatha's Coil and Volatility Support, for lower lows but higher highs.

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Hitman473107#7521 wrote:

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One last food for thought. If you have 25% chance to bleed that means each attack is 75% chance to do no damage as a bleed build. That is going to feel AWFUL in practice while mapping.

Wrong. It just means that the first attack might delay a bit the bleeding, but you'll have a subsequent steady flow afterwards, nonetheless. And I have a lot more chance to bleed (with Vulnerability) than 25% (I have 55%) and more than one attack per second (thanks to faster attacks support and Haste). I just highlighted that you don't need a high chance to apply an ailment that doesn't stack, in order to constantly apply it. Any chance larger and it's wasted in the long run for nothing, when you can use those points to boost your actual damage or something else.

With your current stats, maybe the chance to bleed really doesn't affect much, aside from "delaying the initial bleed"...because bleed isn't where most of your damage is, like it would be with a bleed build. When the bleed itself is 90% or more of your overall DPS, that delay would just be "time not dealing damage".

But, a bleed build gladiator shouldn't have to look far for bleed chance anyways, because they're so likely to pick up 75% total just from the Ascendancy and from bleed chance passives leading to notables granting faster bleeds and bleed DoT multi.

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Hitman473107#7521 wrote:

EDIT: although Impale is just a washed-up version of bleeding. It just does 10% of the initial damage, even if it stacks for a while. Aggravated bleed does 210% damage. It seems that impale isn't even worth the fuss, struggling to raise the chance, but I'll try to see if it does some good.

Aggravated bleed does 210% damage of the hit that inflicted it, per second.
Impale does 10% of the initial damage, lasting for 5 hits (or 8 seconds). If you're consuming all the impales with hits, that's about 50% more damage.

Both can be scaled, but in different ways. For example, champ ascendancy makes impales last an extra hit, and passives can increase impale effect. Unlike bleed, impale also scales just fine with attack speed--as attack speed increases, impale dps increases by the same amount as hit dps, while bleed dps hardly scales with attack speed past being able to apply 2-3 bleeds per bleed duration.

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Hitman473107#7521 wrote:

So, I guess that, based on the research I've done so far, having 1 million dps, not to mention 20 or 240 million, is just a fantasy and shouldn't be taken into consideration at all, until it's proven with actual in-game items and numbers.

Rather than drawing this conclusion based on adjustments that you can make to your current build...try looking at builds with higher numbers, and see what they're doing to achieve those numbers.

There are certainly builds shared that exaggerate their damage--such as sharing PoB links with entirely unrealistic settings placed, or builds on poe.ninja where the player got the character to a high level, then swapped to a build that gets incredible-looking numbers for DPS or eHP, but isn't actually functional.

However, if you're willing to take the time to do some research, you should be able to find a lot of inspiration, whether you're reading up on actual build guides people have made or just looking at what people are running with, or how they progressed their character over the first few days of the league with poe.ninja's league snapshots.

One small note regarding the DPS numbers you can see on poe.ninja for bleed: pob doesn't calculate for Jagged Technique's "bleeding you inflict is aggrevated", so that isn't accounted for the DPS shown on poe.ninja either. When looking at a PoB for a character with Jagged Technique allocated, you need to check the Configuration tab to make sure that the "For Effective DPS" section has a check next to "Is the enemy Moving?"