meaningful combat. what makes this games combat meaningful?

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RusinaRange#6285 wrote:

I was just now watching the Khan's Kast podcast with DarthMicrotransaction as a guest (here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5xlMicUNeuY) and I think the whole podcast is very much worth a watch but what really inspired me to post was what Darth said between 46:28 - 49:35. I agree with a lot that he has to say espcially around lightning spear but I don't really agree that the question of how fast the game is supposed to be is very important and that's what I want to talk about here.

I think everyone (that I've seen) has misunderstood what GGG means when they say meaningful combat. The vast majority of people I've seen have interpreted that as they want the game to feel more like it does during the campaign and that they do not want the moment to moment gameplay of clearing maps to be faster than that.

I do not agree with this take, I think the speed that you clear maps has very little to do with how meaningful the combat is.

The best example of this is comparing herald stacking monk from 0.1 to lightning spear builds in 0.2. In 0.1 just by picking herald of ice and herald of thunder you could very easily clear multiple screens of enemies. At the end state of that build you would press charged staff about every 30 seconds and then LITERALLY just hold down left click and every time a single mob entered your screen multiple screenfulls of enemies would blow up. I saw videos of people trying to optimize their mana regeneration so they wouldn't have to let go of their left click. When you run into bosses you'd just throw down your bell and keep doing the same thing. This is not meaningful combat.

With lightning spear however you constantly have to manage your resources (and you actually have to hit with the spear, unlike with tempest flurry). For volt to payoff you need to move between every spear throw. To keep up your frenzy charges you unlock better options throughout the game: parrying -> combat frenzy + electrocution -> kitoko's -> snipers mark -> cast on critical triggering snipers mark. And then you can't even use lighning spear for bosses but you need other skills for that instead (most likely storm lance + optionally primal strikes or wind serpents fury).

Even if the clear of these builds is similar (though herald stackings clear was even crazier than lightning spear) the gameplay you engage with when building up through the different common build stages of lightning spear is MUCH more engaging. On 0.1 I happened to play monk and I felt like I was just left clicking all the time. Now I picked up huntress on day 1 and I'm currently on T13 maps with Kitoko's and I have 7 active abilities that I'm using while mapping. The clear for lightning spear is still very good but the gameplay is MUCH more engaging which is why I'm enjoying the game a lot more now than I did in 0.1.

This is why I think the question "how fast should a build clear maps" is wrong. It's not really about how fast you can clear your screen, it's more about what is the effort you have to put in either in your build or your moment to moment gameplay that get's you to that spot. I think there's a lot of room for GGG to make builds possible between 0.1 herald stacking and 0.2 Temper Weapon builds that have different mapping / bossing speeds but still feel fun and engaging for the player and keep the combat "meaningful".

Disclaimer: While lightning spear is leagues better than herald stacking in 0.1 I don't think it's perfectly balanced. IMO the top end of what the skill can reach is fine becuase of the heavy investment it needs (eg. dex investment for LS and 133 int for cast on critical) combined with the fact that you still need a different skill for boss clearing, but the floor of the skill when just adding the volt support gem to it is probably too high.

TL;DR: Clearing can be fast while the combat is still meaningful and lightning spear is a good example of the game moving more towards this direction (not fully achieving it). IMO Jonathan doesn't want to answer what the speed of the game should be because you can have fun and engaging builds regardless of how fast they can clear maps.