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On the venn diagram of ARPG Players and Intricate combat systems the overlap is less than 5%
I'd say the 250k POE1 peak (which is the king of one button builds) vs 23M elden ring sales, ~3M D4 players, and the success of many other more engaging games, says otherwise.
The entire point of POE2 is to court the mainstream gamers who do not want a one button slot machine but engaging gameplay. That's why the EA numbers are 2-3x bigger than POE1 ever was... because of their promise this would occur...but their promise is failing, and if they dont fix it... POE2 will be back to insignificant POE1 size playerbase (and revenue)
Yes i understand all of this. Its also fundamentally incorrect as someone who has played every RPG From Software has created, Diablo 1-4 and PoE2 and other ARPGs.
If you think one button zooming is the pinnacle of ARPG, then why is POE1 so unpopular? It makes $80M/yr, while D4 makes $700M, DImmortal makes $700M. Not to mention actually engaging games, like League of Legends, which make in the billions.
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Posted byKuroSF#6521on Apr 15, 2025, 12:24:56 AM
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If you think one button zooming is the pinnacle of ARPG, then why is POE1 so unpopular? It makes $80M/yr, while D4 makes $700M, DImmortal makes $700M. Not to mention actually engaging games, like League of Legends, which make in the billions.
Because anything Blizzard makes will be infinitely more popular than a small NZ studio, backed by chinese super companies or not.
Do you believe that Disney makes the best movies? They make more money than any other studio.
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Posted byKadath128#6487on Apr 15, 2025, 12:27:25 AM
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Slow and methodical gameplay ends by the end of Act 1. Sure you can play slow and methodical, and I can also decide to tie my left and right shoes together when I run a marathon. It's just that it feels stupid most of the time since you know there's a much easier and much more effective solution that also requires less effort.
I think there is a misconception that engaging gameplay means slow and methodical. Or even that it has to involve multiple buttons.
Engaging gameplay means the player has to react to what is happening on screen in a meaningful way.
Being able to blow away 1.5 screens by tapping lightning spears vaguly in the direction of enemies is non-interactive.
Dangerous melee zoomer, throw a lightning spear.
Group of ranged enemies, throw a lightning spear.
Big meaty rare dude, throw a lightning spear (and if hes not dead, throw another).
There are almost no player choices happening here.. maybe a tiny bit of positioning?
The only way to put consequence into this loop is to play hardcore.. but then we have to deal with DDoS lag spikes and random no counterplay oneshot mechanics that mean the only way to realiably advance is to play in a super safe and tedius way.
Choreographed boss fights have a ton more interactivity, as at least we have to learn the boss, and take action to avoid the damage in order to beat it. But POE2 (like POE1) won't let us out of this mindless loop of endlessly pushing a button non-interactively... So non-interactively that ZiZ was apparently talking about wanting to play hardcore while watching video/tv/streams on another monitor. This is absolute worthless nonsense. And if it stays this way, POE2 will have all of the ~70k returning playerbase of POE1. Probably the same people.
Last edited by KuroSF#6521 on Apr 15, 2025, 12:34:02 AM
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Posted byKuroSF#6521on Apr 15, 2025, 12:31:25 AM
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If you think one button zooming is the pinnacle of ARPG, then why is POE1 so unpopular? It makes $80M/yr, while D4 makes $700M, DImmortal makes $700M. Not to mention actually engaging games, like League of Legends, which make in the billions.
Because anything Blizzard makes will be infinitely more popular than a small NZ studio, backed by chinese super companies or not.
Do you believe that Disney makes the best movies? They make more money than any other studio.
There are plenty of tiny studios that make huge hit games. Minecraft (quite literally started by one guy). PUBG. Roblox. Hollow Knight.
Don't kid yourself. POE1 has low playerbase and low revenue because it has low appeal..and POE2 is GGG's attempt to fix that. (how to fix it is certainly a matter of debate)
If you look at Disney financials they are making most of their profit from Disney+ subscriptions, which is because they became a mega brand buying up smaller brands... We're not talking about the STUDIO revenue of Disney or Blizzard/Activision vs GGG. We're talking about individual games D4 vs POE1/2. Blizzard chunked the big one on Heart of the Storm, and they floundered Overwatch into the ground. They don't have a midas touch in games.
I think Diablo's modern popularity really started with D3, as many of the D3 players were babies when D2 was released. The formula they put together in D3 and D4, appeals to a mainstream audience. The same people I know who played D3/D4 all tried POE1, they just didn't like it. (they didn't even understand it)
I think one significant (and honestly simple) factors is D4 having quest reward loot that establishes a gearing-floor... so players who have aweful RNG are at least guaranted some gear floor to work from.... unlike POE, where the player can get aweful loot drop luck, not know how to craft yet, and have a torture chamber experience.
The simpler class/spell system is undoubtedly another factor. I'm not saying it's better, but it's certainly easier.. and at the moment, D4 has more diversity of actual builds than POE2 does (even in the season of spiritborn silliness, there was more diversity than POE2)
Last edited by KuroSF#6521 on Apr 15, 2025, 12:45:38 AM
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Posted byKuroSF#6521on Apr 15, 2025, 12:44:53 AM
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If you think one button zooming is the pinnacle of ARPG, then why is POE1 so unpopular? It makes $80M/yr, while D4 makes $700M, DImmortal makes $700M. Not to mention actually engaging games, like League of Legends, which make in the billions.
Because anything Blizzard makes will be infinitely more popular than a small NZ studio, backed by chinese super companies or not.
Do you believe that Disney makes the best movies? They make more money than any other studio.
There are plenty of tiny studios that make huge hit games. Minecraft (quite literally started by one guy). PUBG. Roblox. Hollow Knight.
Don't kid yourself. POE1 has low playerbase and low revenue because it has low appeal..and POE2 is GGG's attempt to fix that. (how to fix it is certainly a matter of debate)
If you look at Disney financials they are making most of their profit from Disney+ subscriptions, which is because they became a mega brand buying up smaller brands... We're not talking about the STUDIO revenue of Disney or Blizzard/Activision vs GGG. We're talking about individual games D4 vs POE1/2. Blizzard chunked the big one on Heart of the Storm, and they floundered Overwatch into the ground. They don't have a midas touch in games.
I think Diablo's modern popularity really started with D3, as many of the D3 players were babies when D2 was released. The formula they put together in D3 and D4, appeals to a mainstream audience. The same people I know who played D3/D4 all tried POE1, they just didn't like it. (they didn't even understand it)
I think one significant (and honestly simple) factors is D4 having quest reward loot that establishes a gearing-floor... so players who have aweful RNG are at least guaranted some gear floor to work from.... unlike POE, where the player can get aweful loot drop luck, not know how to craft yet, and have a torture chamber experience.
The simpler class/spell system is undoubtedly another factor. I'm not saying it's better, but it's certainly easier.. and at the moment, D4 has more diversity of actual builds than POE2 does (even in the season of spiritborn silliness, there was more diversity than POE2)
I actually agree with you an nearly every point here other than PoE1 not being considered a success. I think it very clearly was a massive success. Annecdotally, I left D3 for PoE1, although I did end up also leaving PoE1 around the time PoE2 was announced. I was also alive and played D2 at release.
I think that if end of act bosses had rare, but useful in the early endgame, drops that could be farmed, even if it took not insignificant time, the game would be better off.
Imagine if the new Tabula gave you a 5 link gem slot (skill +4 sockets) as opposed to 6 runes, or the like. Just a spit ball, I'm not a dev, but the low gear floor combined with the sheer number of bad skills and supports really doesn't do much in favor of the game.
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Posted byKadath128#6487on Apr 15, 2025, 12:51:49 AM
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If you think one button zooming is the pinnacle of ARPG, then why is POE1 so unpopular? It makes $80M/yr, while D4 makes $700M, DImmortal makes $700M. Not to mention actually engaging games, like League of Legends, which make in the billions.
Because anything Blizzard makes will be infinitely more popular than a small NZ studio, backed by chinese super companies or not.
Do you believe that Disney makes the best movies? They make more money than any other studio.
There are plenty of tiny studios that make huge hit games. Minecraft (quite literally started by one guy). PUBG. Roblox. Hollow Knight.
Don't kid yourself. POE1 has low playerbase and low revenue because it has low appeal..and POE2 is GGG's attempt to fix that. (how to fix it is certainly a matter of debate)
If you look at Disney financials they are making most of their profit from Disney+ subscriptions, which is because they became a mega brand buying up smaller brands... We're not talking about the STUDIO revenue of Disney or Blizzard/Activision vs GGG. We're talking about individual games D4 vs POE1/2. Blizzard chunked the big one on Heart of the Storm, and they floundered Overwatch into the ground. They don't have a midas touch in games.
I think Diablo's modern popularity really started with D3, as many of the D3 players were babies when D2 was released. The formula they put together in D3 and D4, appeals to a mainstream audience. The same people I know who played D3/D4 all tried POE1, they just didn't like it. (they didn't even understand it)
I think one significant (and honestly simple) factors is D4 having quest reward loot that establishes a gearing-floor... so players who have aweful RNG are at least guaranted some gear floor to work from.... unlike POE, where the player can get aweful loot drop luck, not know how to craft yet, and have a torture chamber experience.
The simpler class/spell system is undoubtedly another factor. I'm not saying it's better, but it's certainly easier.. and at the moment, D4 has more diversity of actual builds than POE2 does (even in the season of spiritborn silliness, there was more diversity than POE2)
This is all nonsense. put the pipe down and go to bed, or at least stop with the shit posting acting like youre an expert of pop culture marketing. per capita PoE is ridiculously financially solvent, get wrecked nerd.
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Posted byMeanBob_Games#6853on Apr 15, 2025, 12:53:32 AM
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Because they are the only thing viable in a game where every other skill just falls down. You want us to play fancy combos while a pack of 40 monsters are rushing at us with 9000HP at mach Jesus. If you play other builds you just die a lot. If you play the meta one shot spark / infernalist / monk before and now lightning spear you can handle the game. Until all skills in the game are viable, there will be no build variety. People will gravitate to the only thing that is fun (because it works). Right now if you try and play fangs of frost with parry its a slog through a Cambodian jungle with a pocket knife, not even a machete. Last league there were about 4 meta builds and the rest of the skills in the game weren't worth trying. Now its pretty much just lightning spear.
Again ... play your own product.
Are you seriously trying to use fangs of frost and parry for you entire damage output? You're not using other skills?
Impatience is insatiable.
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Posted byGorbarr#2442on Apr 15, 2025, 12:56:41 AM
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Don't kid yourself. POE1 has low playerbase and low revenue because it has low appeal..and POE2 is GGG's attempt to fix that. (how to fix it is certainly a matter of debate)
Blizzard spent something like 50m on the game and 250m on marketing. That is your answer right there.
Non sequitur to the original post.
On the subject of the Original Post, I define a viable build as one that is playable and fun and able to defeat the pinnacle content. I have a Fangs of Frost, Glacial Lance, Parry, Cull the Weak build. I am fairly certain I wont even be able to finish the campaign with that. So If I want to kill a pinnacle map or boss, I need to switch to lightning spear and I am not willing to do that.
So where does that leave me?
Yep ... playing something else.
Last edited by Kraythax#2592 on Apr 15, 2025, 1:06:54 AM
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Posted byKraythax#2592on Apr 15, 2025, 12:58:15 AM
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Finally.
Mash the clean
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Posted byMashgesture#2912on Apr 15, 2025, 12:58:59 AMOn Probation
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It can be
Diablo 3 was great at combo screen explosion.
It was a satifying strength of the game.
Group; all the mobs into the center , becasue at high level you would never be able to kill them with the time allowed.. you needed to aoe kill ...
Group up ... set up... KABOOOMM!!!!
In poe .. right now ... you are not grouping anything.
1) I will stun lock you
2) It will mass explode and kill you
3) It is faster than you, you will be surrounded and unable to move or attack
etc
They created a bunch of attacks that get you killed.
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Posted byJitter912#4278on Apr 15, 2025, 1:06:59 AM
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