SSF situation and feedback

Playing the game so far have been quite a journey. I've enjoyed fights, story developments, environment/quest interaction, graphics, leveling and all the quirky nicks and turns the skills have pulled me through, and I've played more than a handful of characters to maps. I've seen a lot of things that with expected tweeks coming in the future update will be things I'll keep enjoying for a long time to come.

When it comes to SSF specifically, the story changes a little. I get the game is still a 'newborn' and is still coming into its identity, if you will, but the game currently doesn't have much of deterministic loot farming, mechanic or crafting to cater for SSF playstyle. I've heard multiple streamers without queue to the topic say they're going straight for trade league for Dawn of the Hunt, specifically because SSF isn't in a good place.

Neither POE or POE2 cater well to people that don't enjoy just buying gear off from other people or those who simply enjoy playing with things found through own effort. POE does handle this better than POE2, since there are many more deterministic mechanics in place to accommodate for this, BUT... The mechanics are still the very same that was developed for trade league standards in mind. This makes SSF an outright detrimental punishment, but most people didn't enter SSF for the sake of a punishment league, but for their preferred playstyle.

A while back now Last Epoch came out with factions. Letting players decide if they wanted to be part of a trade economy or they wanted an SSF-adjusted environment. To this day, I've only heard a roaring applause for that possibility from people I've talked ARPG with in that timeframe.

Trade and SSF leagues based on the exact same loot mechanics, will never truly shine at the same time.

It makes sense that in a trade league you can get whatever you want if you are not able to get the right drop/craft result, but in SSF with the same settings, it becomes shackled gameplay, without any reward/bonus for the handicap. Arguably unjustifiable if you don't force a 'challenge' tag on the league, but we already have hardcore league for challenge league, ruthless league too if you include POE.

My recommendation is make SSF vary from trade league in not just being a stripped version. Give it a mechanic unique to SSF however small or give the league a small increased loot quantity modifier if a mechanic for SSF is too far out of the scope for now.

I have faith in the game and I'm looking forward to the new update, but I can tell... It could be even greater, if SSF wasn't treated in what could easily be seen as an afterthought adjustment, after making everything designed for trade league settings.

Shamelessly re-posting from the other SSF thread, here.

It seems to me that GGG have a fundamental conflict between two different design imperatives that they're trying to sustain simultaneously.

On one hand, they want players to care about the loot that drops from monsters. Having enough good loot dropping so that an SSF player isn't playing at a significant progression penality is crucial to accomplishing this goal. If players can only progress by trading, or can only experience the game's later-game content by trading, then GGG fail to accomplish this goal.

On the other hand, they're committed to the concept of PoE2 as an economic game, in which players are constantly trading for the things they need to progress. This runs squarely into the simple fact that the trade system is archaic, that many players aren't enjoying the experience of actually executing trades, and that having to trade for progression that should be available to players directly from killing monsters doesn't feel great if the act of trading isn't something you find fun in and of itself.

I don't think GGG's current approach is properly serving either group. Players who want to beat the game's content using the stuff the drops directly from killing monsters are finding that to be very frustrating, something which GGG explicitly acknowledged was just how PoE works in their trade manifesto years ago. But having to maintain the friction in the trade system in order to maintain the fiction that trading is still optional and not mandatory, is making the experience of trading to progress through the game worse even for people who want to be doing it.

And all that's before you even consider how fun-killing it is to play an economic game where the in-game economy is frequently completely borked.

I feel like this fundamental disconnect is something that GGG will have to confront at some point. I wish that point would come sooner rather than later, but the game has had this problem for years already at this point, so maybe not

I agree crafting/finding the gear I need in ssf isn't great compared to poe1, but more crafting options should add some help with that.

But I dont want 1 version of the game to rain more/better loot. When i find a rare item I'd like to feel like it was found on a level playing field, not on a "extra pittance for the loners" mode.

Isn't it fine that trade accelerates progression compared to a ssf mode? I dont see a reason why SSF/trade characters should expect equal speeds of progression to one another.

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Direfell#7544 wrote:

Isn't it fine that trade accelerates progression compared to a ssf mode? I dont see a reason why SSF/trade characters should expect equal speeds of progression to one another.

I don't think they need to equal exactly, just more comparable. The ability to crowd-source loot-finding will always have an edge, and I do think it's fine if it's the more optimal solution, it's just not fine if it's the only viable solution. Which is effectively the situation now; the difference in time required to advance in current SSF mode versus current trade is enormous to the point of feeling unfair to anyone who's not able to take weeks off work to no-life the game each league. If you're looking for a challenge mode, specifically, then I guess that can work, but I don't know that most players are necessarily looking for ways to make the game even harder.

I think that PoE1's Settlers of Kalguur league was a step in the right direction, actually. It gave SSF players multiple ways to turn gold into better drops and additional drop chances, but also gave trade enjoyers an exchange which allowed better trading but which also cost gold to access. It improved trade without reducing friction, and also provided alternative mechanics which directly improved the SSF experience. Something more along those lines would be OK, but PoE2 only has gamnbling, which has such terrible returns on gold invested that it's hardly worth doing.

The problem I see in current SSF is not endgame but through campaign to early endgame. It is simply unreasonable to get the basis covered for resistances and min equipment.

Trade is the only thing that allows to pay the taxes that the game itself imposes to you, like lower resistances through acts or increasing investment in armor /weapon dps.

There are also itemization mechanics that punishes self-loot management; like the need to identify pretty much any item in the game. In comparison, for trade league, you don't need to identify currency; so you can always maximize your loot filter for it.

At the end, small things add-up to create a really frustrating environment for SSF. It is not necessarily that SSF game-play is "harder", I think there are several itemization choices that make overall game-play a chore and trade simply allows to completely bypass them.

Now, on regards to Last Epoch comment from OP: What LE does much better that POE2 is to give low-power itemization options through campaign and early end-game to the player. No matter what you do, you are nearly guaranteed to have your base covered. Late game, is another story and SSF fares worst that crow-founded trade items; which is understandable... but at least player agency up to mid end-game allows the game-play to be much smoother.

TLDR: POE2 simply needs deterministic low level crafting. e.g.: Just make low tier runes to be purchaseable in shops; like resistance runes.