Im fine with the EXP Penalty.

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mikeab79#3627 wrote:

Say they remove these, or some of these penalties. What happens when most to all players now reach 100? Would everyone be content with 100 being it, or would the next demand be more progression past 100? I only ask, because this very thing is/has been demanded in other games. In the other games, every time the demand is met, shorty after, the calls for more progression past max level is made. Calls for more content is made to meet the new power creep. Is this what we really want?

This argument kinda falls flat right away once you realize that this already exists in the current game. The only difference is some people will reach that point a little faster than others. If you reach 100 now with or without xp loss it reaches the same point but on a different time invested scale. The calls for more progression will always exist that is the entire point of these games.

Also games like these already have systems in place that allow leveling past 100 in a separate system. Diablo 3 has the paragon system that has infinite scaling but also has a mode that has infinite scaling monsters to keep that challenge going. On top of that scaling in Diablo 3, in order to make it so the player does not become too strong too fast they have caps on the really important paragon stats where as the less important but still useful stats have no cap.

I do not think there is anything wrong with a system that allows past 100 leveling in some shape and the argument of "that would make the game bad" just falls on deaf ears due to the fact that people want to use their character they spent time on and keep that same level of fulfilment. Once you reach level 100 you basically just tell yourself "okay time to endlessly fight bosses" or never touch the character again and play a new one, or use your strong character to item grind for your new character like what i currently do.

At this very moment once you reach about 25% in your XP bar you get this sudden feeling of "well time to avoid this mechanic until i level up so that way i do not lose the last 10 hours to something out of my control." Right now Everytime i see people playing the game they wait till they level up before doing hard content so they don't get punished because you cant lose xp if you have no xp. If you currently have 25% or more XP do not go near delirium that is pretty much a universal agreement. Why should a player feel like they have to lock away gameplay in order to not waste there time?

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AintCare#6513 wrote:

omens exist don;t defeat my point, its a rare item you can use to amliorate the xp loss if you choose to do so, you want it for free.

again, there is a reaosn for xp penalty, none of you are even trying to understand it, you just going around picking at things unrelated to it. this convo, like always, will go on in circles, forever

yeah, the omen cost like 70 exalts, which is not something you can't afford at say lvl 96.

There is nothing to understand, that's the thing. It's an antiquated outdated mechanic that is just plain bad game design disincentivizing you from taking risks. That's why literally no other game has it. And the few that do have similar mechanics, like the soulsborne games or even D2, allow you to recoup them through active gameplay. So they turn a loss into a win through active gameplay, which is at least thoughtful implementation of the mechanic.

Here there is nothing, just punishment for playing the game essentially, with the punishment growing exponentially with the level and with engagement of higher tier content. And once I decide, hey I don't care about leveling anymore, the punishment immediately vanishes, making all this talk about risk and it's necessity completely obsolete. Just as it is completely obsolete before you reach like lvl 90.

The funny thing is it doesn't even set you back in levels. Due to the exponential nature of exp requirement for leveling, you can die a 100 times going from level 70 to level 95 and the exp loss probably won't even amount to a single level difference if you hadn't died. It's just a gigantic time waster. Nothing more. And in an uber-grindy game like this we really do not need mechanics that solely exist to waste your time.

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Gang5ter15#1071 wrote:

I dont think the EXP Penalty is an issue. I dont mind it existing.

I do think the game has an issue with dying being to punishing in one way or another.
Dying makes you:
- lose exp
- lose a map
- lose map modifiers (breach, tablets, etc.)
- you cant anointed map on an attempted node
- lose citadel bosses
- lose potential loot
- u maybe have to use another map

That together is a problem.

On top of that, GGG doesn't seem to acknowledge why people are dying. It feels like they gas light us into thinking "if you die...it's because you/your build are/is not good enough".

The vast majority of my deaths are too things that don't have counter-play. One-shot stuff killing me from the other side of the screen, visual clarity, death mechanics I can't even see, dodges that require capped out move speed and millisecond timing, bugs, or being instant swarmed and micro stunned. None of that has something for me to learn from.

It's just unbalanced game design. Which would be fine, except for the fact that GGG is punishing me for it. If I'm dying to stuff that doesn't have counter play, then there is no learning experience, and it's just frustrating.

So yes, pick 1 thing to lose, not everything that you mentioned, especially since most deaths for people who make it to late gamer aren't going to have a lot of counter play to it.

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AintCare#6513 wrote:

this wager is what makes the game fun. any game is more fun with a wager

There exits a gamemode that already does that. It's called hardcore.

You can philosophize as much as you want but reality clashes with your theories. If people set out the goal to level past 90 they start taking progressively less risk to achieve it because the wager gets to high for the potential reward that can be obtained. that's a fact, ask any of your fellow gamers. They will confirm.
And if they don't care to level past 90 then they do not wager at all, according to you removing all the fun from the game.

So the mechanic of exp loss in reality completely fails at achieving what it is set out to do according to your theory. The player isn't exhilarated at the prospect of his wager ever increasing, he stops engaging with risk because it is just not worth it.

But I guess we won't see eye to eye here. Personally, I would prefer that softcore mode isn't ham-fisted into some sort of hardcore light for some lofty philosophy rooted in bad game design principles from the last millenium

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AintCare#6513 wrote:

hardcore argument once again- another fallacy without trying to understand the reason. the game has no goal to level past 90, this was repeated by devs many times. reality is simple you just refuse to accept it

Brother, you are the only one who uses fallacies here to not have to engage with actual arguments. Like this post, it's just an appeal to authority.

Yeah there needs to be some risk factor for sure, i hope they keep it in,

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mikeab79#3627 wrote:

Say they remove these, or some of these penalties. What happens when most to all players now reach 100? Would everyone be content with 100 being it, or would the next demand be more progression past 100? I only ask, because this very thing is/has been demanded in other games. In the other games, every time the demand is met, shorty after, the calls for more progression past max level is made. Calls for more content is made to meet the new power creep. Is this what we really want?

There is obviously a reason to go past level 90.
First it gives a sense of accomplishment. And if it just is Number Up! NICE
Then Skill Points do matter.

The issue is if the Bar on the bottom decreases it frustrates People. Which makes people annoyed which then makes people quit. It reduced Player retention. That cant be what the Developers want.

I am fine with the Exp Penalty, but i can understand that people are not and why people are not fine it.

This has a really simple solution and D3 already showed how it can be implemented. Instead of punishing the player for dying you can reward him for surviving. No sour taste of frustration in your mouth anymore about the game just trying to waste your time.

For instance make it so that if you successfully finish a map you get a 25% exp gain boost for the next map of the same tier or lower. If you die you lose all exp from the map you currently are in.
Suddendly not dying and maintaining a streak becomes a boon instead of avoidance of punishment, and at the same time you aren't disincentivized of interacting with risky content because the punishment is fair and not erasing hours and hours of progress on higher levels.

Also no need for dumb bandaid items like omen of amelioration.
The significantly slower exp gain in PoE2 would easily allow for not losing exp and giving this small exp boon and not trivialize the grind.

But I guess we will stick with the antiquated anti-player mechanic that was carried over from the past as a "mechanic" when really all it was, was a lack of storage capability of old consoles. Because it makes death "meaningful". Still trying to find the meaning in getting punished for dying trying to learn a boss mechanic, but I guess any day now.

I think monster level is at the root of this problem. I mean, I really hate dying on my lvl 93 character (most often it's absolute BS, and yes my resistances and all that shit is fine before you even start asking) but to be fair I've been pondering this issue and I think the main issue behind 1 life per map and EXP loss on death is that we go beyond monster level.

Since when did anyone have an issue with EXP penalty during Acts? Yeah, since never. At some point the monsters will be lvl 79 (or 80 or 81 whatever, depends on whether you corrupt/irradiate the map) At some point you will also be lvl 79. At some point you will be, say, lvl 93. Well, the monsters are still going to be lvl 79. Did anyone of you try leveling up your lvl 30 character by killing mobs in Ogham Manor Act 1 normal? Yep, me neither, because there were higher lvl mobs in the next Acts. So I'm saying that we either get more tiers for waystones or increase the default monster lvl of each waystone tier. We shouldn't have to emulate Cartman and the gang killing boars outside the starting area in WoW.