"Just Don't Die" should not be an option

To everyone saying "Just don't die" to people complaining about death penalties:

Not dying should not be an option for any but the elite players.

This game is supposed to be largely skill based. It should require near perfect dodge rolls, movement skills, timing, skill usage. New bosses should have mechanics that take several deaths to learn and even more to learn to overcome. With over 200 bosses coming that should keep us on our toes for a long time.

Maps should have plenty of opportunities for packs of mobs to overwhelm you, and rares with stacked modifiers pushing you to your limit when your build does match up against them well.

If most players can regularly go ten maps or more without dying, the game is not challenging enough. Yes, players can always choose to grind lower level or easier content, but that should be the least rewarding way to play.

As for Hardcore: You shouldn't expect every character you roll to get to endgame, and certainly not far into it. Sometimes you'll just roll a bad map, or fail to execute and the run ends. Roll another character and start the loop again - that's the nature of rogue-lites. At least you can pass gear on, so each run should give you more of an advantage than the last (the difference between rogue lite and rogue like).

Here's hoping GGG leans into the challenge and Souls inspiration to make this game the most challenging aRPG it can be, rather than the most punishing. That's what's been promised, and I really hope they deliver.


EDIT: Posted in wrong forum - moved to Feedback. Don't know how to delete thread.

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Mouser#2899 wrote:

This game is supposed to be largely skill based. It should require near perfect dodge rolls, movement skills, timing, skill usage. New bosses should have mechanics that take several deaths to learn and even more to learn to overcome. With over 200 bosses coming that should keep us on our toes for a long time.

You keep writing false things like this.

Games like PoE and Diablo are 80% - 90% equipment based. Maybe, if even, 10% - 20% skill based. If you want a skill based game you got the wrong genre.

There could be made an argument for the campaign of PoE 2. But even there the difference in having a bad weapon or a +3 Skills +100% spell damage weapon for a sorceress feel like you are playing two different games.

And this will never change because the difference in power between starting out and a 1.000 Divine Orb character are that huge. And that difference has to be huge. Else nobody would be interested in improving their character anywhere near to that point. Or in other words, lose interest in that character very fast.

If you make the game challenging for a character with medium/good gear it will be nearly impossible for a character with bad gear. There will always be a point with equipment where the game is a joke and another where it is difficult. That is one of the reasons why we have sooo many options to select what difficulty we want to play at.

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Mouser#2899 wrote:

near perfect dodge rolls, movement skills, timing, skill usage

Especially this part. This could maybe be the case on single bosses. And some bosses are more skill based. Up to the point where you have a character that deletes every boss in two seconds.

But in maps this is absolute nonsense. When there are a hundred mobs, everyone shooting projectiles, creating ground effects, leaping at you, and so on. There is absolute zero chance anybody could dodge all this, move away from all this, or react to every single attack/spell. At this point it is a simple equipment check. Or you accept that you are playing a glass cannon build (which is basically also an equipment check, but for damage instead of defense).

You just keep refusing to accept the fact that PoE is equipment based and not skill based.

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Avaricta#4758 wrote:

You just keep refusing to accept the fact that PoE is equipment based and not skill based.

And if it being keep like that, PoE 2 will just become PoE 1 with added dodge roll and upgraded graphic.

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Avaricta#4758 wrote:

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Mouser#2899 wrote:

This game is supposed to be largely skill based. It should require near perfect dodge rolls, movement skills, timing, skill usage. New bosses should have mechanics that take several deaths to learn and even more to learn to overcome. With over 200 bosses coming that should keep us on our toes for a long time.

You keep writing false things like this.

Games like PoE and Diablo are 80% - 90% equipment based. Maybe, if even, 10% - 20% skill based. If you want a skill based game you got the wrong genre.

There could be made an argument for the campaign of PoE 2. But even there the difference in having a bad weapon or a +3 Skills +100% spell damage weapon for a sorceress feel like you are playing two different games.

And this will never change because the difference in power between starting out and a 1.000 Divine Orb character are that huge.

If you make the game challenging for a character with medium/good gear it will be nearly impossible for a character with bad gear. There will always be a point with equipment where the game is a joke and another where it is difficult. That is one of the reasons why we have sooo many options to select what difficulty we want to play at.

"

Mouser#2899 wrote:

near perfect dodge rolls, movement skills, timing, skill usage

Especially this part. This could maybe be the case on single bosses. And some bosses are more skill based. Up to the point where you have a character that deletes every boss in two seconds.

But in maps this is absolute nonsense. When there are a hundred mobs, everyone shooting projectiles, creating ground effects, leaping at you, and so on. There is absolute zero chance anybody could dodge all this, move away from all this, or react to every single attack/spell. At this point it is a simple equipment check. Or you accept that you are playing a glass cannon build.

You just keep refusing to accept the fact that PoE is equipment based and not skill based.

This argument is really only based in trade. SSF is a whole different ball game. They should never balance around trade. If your not blasting within a couple hours your not trading correctly.

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MikesLoverFromAnotherMother#7477 wrote:

This argument is really only based in trade. SSF is a whole different ball game. They should never balance around trade. If your not blasting within a couple hours your not trading correctly.

It is exactly the same in SSF. It only takes longer to reach that point.

Being able to post this many threads and comments on the PoE forums with 0 supporter packs on your account since 2013 should not be an option.

Just play another game, dude. LOL

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Avaricta#4758 wrote:

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Mouser#2899 wrote:

This game is supposed to be largely skill based. It should require near perfect dodge rolls, movement skills, timing, skill usage. New bosses should have mechanics that take several deaths to learn and even more to learn to overcome. With over 200 bosses coming that should keep us on our toes for a long time.

You keep writing false things like this.

Games like PoE and Diablo are 80% - 90% equipment based. Maybe, if even, 10% - 20% skill based. If you want a skill based game you got the wrong genre.

There could be made an argument for the campaign of PoE 2. But even there the difference in having a bad weapon or a +3 Skills +100% spell damage weapon for a sorceress feel like you are playing two different games.

And this will never change because the difference in power between starting out and a 1.000 Divine Orb character are that huge. And that difference has to be huge. Else nobody would be interested in improving their character anywhere near to that point. Or in other words, lose interest in that character very fast.

If you make the game challenging for a character with medium/good gear it will be nearly impossible for a character with bad gear. There will always be a point with equipment where the game is a joke and another where it is difficult. That is one of the reasons why we have sooo many options to select what difficulty we want to play at.

"

Mouser#2899 wrote:

near perfect dodge rolls, movement skills, timing, skill usage

Especially this part. This could maybe be the case on single bosses. And some bosses are more skill based. Up to the point where you have a character that deletes every boss in two seconds.

But in maps this is absolute nonsense. When there are a hundred mobs, everyone shooting projectiles, creating ground effects, leaping at you, and so on. There is absolute zero chance anybody could dodge all this, move away from all this, or react to every single attack/spell. At this point it is a simple equipment check. Or you accept that you are playing a glass cannon build (which is basically also an equipment check, but for damage instead of defense).

You just keep refusing to accept the fact that PoE is equipment based and not skill based.

The only one in denial here is you, my guy. Path of Exile 2 is clearly designed to be a skill based game. The devs have even said this themselves. If there are any parts of the game that currently solely rely on having the right gear, and not being skilled, then that's an area they're certainly to balance in a way that makes skill matter more again.

Path of Exile 1 is designed to be mostly equipment based, but Path of Exile 2 absolutely isn't. This is a new game, it's not trying to just be PoE1 again, it's trying to do something new. Given the entire design philosophy of the game, and the statements from GGG, it is abundantly clear that this game is supposed to be a skill-based game AND an equipment based game. Why do you think they kept nerfing the builds that were trivializing the challenge? They're going to keep doing that, because they want to preserve the challenge of the game, so that it still keeps on testing your skill.

Obviously making a new character when you're rich will mean you have an easier time, gear is definitely going to matter a lot in terms of difficulty. But the idea is that the only way you acquire that kind of wealth is by being skilled enough to beat the hardest parts of the game. You get through the game using skill, so you can earn levels, skills, currency and acquire gear that makes the game easier. It's the exact same design philosophy as games like Monster Hunter and Soulsborne, which are clearly skill-based games. Equipment will ease the challenge, but never completely trivialize it, and you can only get that level of equipment by first overcoming the challenge in the first place. The only content that wil be trivialized by being rich is content that character has already cleared. You're not supposed to ever have an easy time with the hardest endgame bosses, no matter how rich you are. You're dreaming if you think this game isn't going to have a huge focus on skill.

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MarsAstro#7928 wrote:

Obviously making a new character when you're rich will mean you have an easier time, gear is definitely going to matter a lot in terms of difficulty. But the idea is that the only way you acquire that kind of wealth is by being skilled enough to beat the hardest parts of the game. You get through the game using skill, so you can earn levels, skills, currency and acquire gear that makes the game easier. It's the exact same design philosophy as games like Monster Hunter and Soulsborne, which are clearly skill-based games. Equipment will ease the challenge, but never completely trivialize it, and you can only get that level of equipment by first overcoming the challenge in the first place. The only content that wil be trivialized by being rich is content that character has already cleared. You're not supposed to ever have an easy time with the hardest endgame bosses, no matter how rich you are. You're dreaming if you think this game isn't going to have a huge focus on skill.

This is simply not going to be true as long as there is trade in the game. This is because there are players that play the game 12 hours a day and will flood the market with cheap gear that's better than whatever you are likely to find during the campaign. And this is for one exalt or less. Even in SSF you can trivialize the difficulty if you get lucky with drops and/or know what you are doing with your character. That problem could probably be fixed by massively toning down maximum player power level, but with trading I don't think even that would fix everything. And some or probably even most players would absolutely hate that.

yeah about that 1000 billion bosses thing ,
i been mapping a lot , A LOT .

and it feels like i am fighting the same 10 map bosses every time .
not to mention ALL Of them are just bosses from the leveling acts .

which is boring and lame.

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HolmesinJussi#1854 wrote:

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MarsAstro#7928 wrote:

Obviously making a new character when you're rich will mean you have an easier time, gear is definitely going to matter a lot in terms of difficulty. But the idea is that the only way you acquire that kind of wealth is by being skilled enough to beat the hardest parts of the game. You get through the game using skill, so you can earn levels, skills, currency and acquire gear that makes the game easier. It's the exact same design philosophy as games like Monster Hunter and Soulsborne, which are clearly skill-based games. Equipment will ease the challenge, but never completely trivialize it, and you can only get that level of equipment by first overcoming the challenge in the first place. The only content that wil be trivialized by being rich is content that character has already cleared. You're not supposed to ever have an easy time with the hardest endgame bosses, no matter how rich you are. You're dreaming if you think this game isn't going to have a huge focus on skill.

This is simply not going to be true as long as there is trade in the game. This is because there are players that play the game 12 hours a day and will flood the market with cheap gear that's better than whatever you are likely to find during the campaign. And this is for one exalt or less. Even in SSF you can trivialize the difficulty if you get lucky with drops and/or know what you are doing with your character. That problem could probably be fixed by massively toning down maximum player power level, but with trading I don't think even that would fix everything. And some or probably even most players would absolutely hate that.

All that 1 exalt trade gear? That should be considered baseline (or 2nd character baseline). As you keep going and farm more and more currency, you can get even better gear. But that should never guarantee success.

Gear can help, but the game should require player skill on top of that to succeed.

Many games let you buy character boosts, but if the player doesn't know what they're doing, they're still going to fail.

Even with great gear, you should still be dying regularly. If most normal players (ignore the 10 hour a day people, and the ones only playing an hour or two on the weekends) keep beating bosses on the first try and going ten, twenty, ... maps in a row without dying, then the game is seriously broken and needs to be rebalanced.