The irony of Grinding Gear Games.

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Akedomo#3573 wrote:

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Xypha#3760 wrote:

as a trade is bad for the game andy and ssf player, nah. dont agree, ppl have been spoilt. the frequency i see ppl say ground loot bad, meanwhile their filter hides it all and they just cbf id'ing anything, and they have been so spoilt they dont know what a good item even looks like anymore cuz anything less then 6xt1 is not good to them because crafting got to op and bricked everything

That's a design problem with the game.

Players should be able to tell fairly quickly if an item is an upgrade or is good or not.

In PoE, I have to look up crafting guides to determine that. I have to compare, often 5, 6, 7 different stats on items, across multiple items to make my character work, figure out upgrades. Where I can tweak an item, or replace another.

Too complicated. Don't like it. Just want to smash bosses 4 loot.

I just think the majority of players just want to play the game.

HUH. in 6000 hours of poe 1 ive not had trouble understanding if my item was an upgrade or not, they are 95% of the time hp/es + defenses. then there is some affix you should have a degree of awaremness matters to you. like minion damage, added damage or multi maybe some special things like frenzy gen and all those special things but if you have understanding to how you are scaling your buid they are clear.

ppl like to say its complicated. its not, most ppl saying that also have never not followed a guide and and tried to actually look and learn to assess themselves and keep just using a tool you dont really need till your scraping the .5% top gains.

OP has a point here. If drops OR atleast crafting would work more reliably, the game would feel way more rewarding. Beating a boss only felt good during first playthrough. Once you know what they do, you just kill them and that's it.

I've been there, in the trenches, when D3 released. It felt pretty much the same: If you reliably wanted to upgrade your gear, it was most efficient to farm currency and check the auction house or (god forbid) used the RMAH. Loot was way too inconsistent: not enough drops with too many trashy rolls.

In a genre that's about killing monsters and upgrading your gear, replacing the gear grind by trade grind is bad. It basically makes the game "buy gear for your build, then run some maps, then quit the game because basically you just beat the game."

Yes I refuse to trade because I know it will ruin the purpose to play the game for me that is grinding gear. But grinding gear feels almost impossible when the last time I upgraded my bow was 20 levels ago and I still haven't found a better one.

I'm not against trading per se. People who want to engage with that should be able to do so. I just want loot to feel good enough to not feel compelled to trade all the time.

I agree completely with the OP.
I've never played PoE1 and maybe trading was always the essential part of getting gear upgrades, but personally I think a game should always work without trading, and trading should be a way to min-max not to get your basic stuff.

In 100+ hours of playing PoE2 I've found ONE single shield with increased block chance and I have zero loot filter and basically pick up everything I find to make it into mats or gold. The consequence is that I'm running around with the same shield for 30+ levels now -_-.

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Xypha#3760 wrote:

deterministic is bad. always has and always will be

No, its not, at least not for crafting! Deterministic crafting is a basic requirement to fix loot RNG. A game that gives you a few materials and then leaves you with completely random results when using these materials is just a waste of time and artificially prolonging your play-time with boring grinds and no rewards. Tempering in D4 is miles ahead in that sense (D4 has other issues though).

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Xypha#3760 wrote:

i will also say, ive seen ppl say where craft bench i cant fix resists, meanwhile they have sockets and socket currency aswell as runes for resist.

A full set of runes of the same type isn't even enough to fix a single damage type (5 x 12% = 60%), especially not with all the resistance penalties you get over the course of the campaign and mapping.

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flowq#1283 wrote:

I agree completely with the OP.
I've never played PoE1 and maybe trading was always the essential part of getting gear upgrades, but personally I think a game should always work without trading, and trading should be a way to min-max not to get your basic stuff.

In 100+ hours of playing PoE2 I've found ONE single shield with increased block chance and I have zero loot filter and basically pick up everything I find to make it into mats or gold. The consequence is that I'm running around with the same shield for 30+ levels now -_-.

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Xypha#3760 wrote:

deterministic is bad. always has and always will be

No, its not, at least not for crafting! Deterministic crafting is a basic requirement to fix loot RNG. A game that gives you a few materials and then leaves you with completely random results when using these materials is just a waste of time and artificially prolonging your play-time with boring grinds and no rewards. Tempering in D4 is miles ahead in that sense (D4 has other issues though).

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Xypha#3760 wrote:

i will also say, ive seen ppl say where craft bench i cant fix resists, meanwhile they have sockets and socket currency aswell as runes for resist.

A full set of runes of the same type isn't even enough to fix a single damage type (5 x 12% = 60%), especially not with all the resistance penalties you get over the course of the campaign and mapping.

deterministic crafting is the point where poe devolved into crafting only for gear, it destroys ground loot drops relevance. personally i would up chaos orb drop rates and say use those to fish for the affixes with the knowledge you might lose something else trying, there has to be risk, the more you can steer the craft, the higher the risk to bricking it should be.

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Xypha#3760 wrote:

HUH. in 6000 hours of poe 1 ive not had trouble understanding if my item was an upgrade or not, they are 95% of the time hp/es + defenses. then there is some affix you should have a degree of awaremness matters to you. like minion damage, added damage or multi maybe some special things like frenzy gen and all those special things but if you have understanding to how you are scaling your buid they are clear.

ppl like to say its complicated. its not, most ppl saying that also have never not followed a guide and and tried to actually look and learn to assess themselves and keep just using a tool you dont really need till your scraping the .5% top gains.

"Man I have 6000 hours in the game and I don't have issues with loot"

Oh wow, probably because.. you have 6000 hours in the game.

Do you think someone with 60 hours is going to have the same experience as you?


Oh, probably not? Amazing.

SSF 93 warrior here.

No idea what you are on about either. Drops are fine. Vendors are amazing as a system.


Crafting system is pretty barebones but its not like you cant get an upgrade.


And if you want to compare drops/vendor/gambling to just trading for something.... yea I mean do that for POE1 lol whats your point.

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Akedomo#3573 wrote:

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Xypha#3760 wrote:

HUH. in 6000 hours of poe 1 ive not had trouble understanding if my item was an upgrade or not, they are 95% of the time hp/es + defenses. then there is some affix you should have a degree of awaremness matters to you. like minion damage, added damage or multi maybe some special things like frenzy gen and all those special things but if you have understanding to how you are scaling your buid they are clear.

ppl like to say its complicated. its not, most ppl saying that also have never not followed a guide and and tried to actually look and learn to assess themselves and keep just using a tool you dont really need till your scraping the .5% top gains.

"Man I have 6000 hours in the game and I don't have issues with loot"

Oh wow, probably because.. you have 6000 hours in the game.

Do you think someone with 60 hours is going to have the same experience as you?


Oh, probably not? Amazing.

what part of in the ENTIRETY of the 6000 did you not get. wether it was the first 60 or first 200, no i did not have a hard time knowing if 10 hp more is better then 5... or if 20 armour is betting then 10.
the 'harder' part is identifying the affixs that scale your chosen ability best. is it added spell damage, or % increased for example. but you know. take a moment to do some basic maths, read the gems where it explicitly states the maths and you get an asnwer dam quick, and if in doubt, put it on and try it and see how it felt... nothing binds so whats your problem. im sorry they dont put a green up arrow next to things for you cuz your to lazy to do some entry level maths. unlike another developer this one at least respects your intelligence as a human and rewards you for taking the time to use it.

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Xypha#3760 wrote:

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Akedomo#3573 wrote:

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Xypha#3760 wrote:

HUH. in 6000 hours of poe 1 ive not had trouble understanding if my item was an upgrade or not, they are 95% of the time hp/es + defenses. then there is some affix you should have a degree of awaremness matters to you. like minion damage, added damage or multi maybe some special things like frenzy gen and all those special things but if you have understanding to how you are scaling your buid they are clear.

ppl like to say its complicated. its not, most ppl saying that also have never not followed a guide and and tried to actually look and learn to assess themselves and keep just using a tool you dont really need till your scraping the .5% top gains.

"Man I have 6000 hours in the game and I don't have issues with loot"

Oh wow, probably because.. you have 6000 hours in the game.

Do you think someone with 60 hours is going to have the same experience as you?


Oh, probably not? Amazing.

what part of in the ENTIRETY of the 6000 did you not get. wether it was the first 60 or first 200, no i did not have a hard time knowing if 10 hp more is better then 5... or if 20 armour is betting then 10.
the 'harder' part is identifying the affixs that scale your chosen ability best. is it added spell damage, or % increased for example. but you know. take a moment to do some basic maths, read the gems where it explicitly states the maths and you get an asnwer dam quick, and if in doubt, put it on and try it and see how it felt... nothing binds so whats your problem. im sorry they dont put a green up arrow next to things for you cuz your to lazy to do some entry level maths. unlike another developer this one at least respects your intelligence as a human and rewards you for taking the time to use it.

When did you start playing?

I'm going to take a guess and say, it's back when the game was real simple by comparison to what it is today. You're also being disingenuous, because loot is significantly more complicated than just looking at health or resistances. You can brick you build, replacing an item can sometimes mean upgrading others. There's like 500 different affixes that items can have. And then you're also figuring out how builds work with the uniques in the game.

After 6000 hours I would expect you to have a good grasp on all that. But that doesn't mean loot is easy. You learnt, over-time a lot of it.