Feedback: Jeweler's Orb System

Apologies in advance for the long post. I wanted to give full context and details for my concern, in case that is helpful for the devs.

Context on my playstyle: I've played ARPG's my whole life, going back to Diablo 1. From Diablo, to Grim Dawn, to POE, to Titan Quest, Last Epoch, etc. 

I'm not an end game grinder, and I have no interest in getting on a loot treadmill to try and squeeze dps out of a build so I can push numbers. I like these games for the RPG elements: experimenting with builds, trying out different abilities, and running around looking cool. I play almost exclusively SSF for a variety of reasons (especially in POE, where trade isn't even supported in the game).

Experience with POE: I played a good amount of POE1, and loved it for the build variety. I tried out different classes/builds with each league, played through the campaign and a bit of maps to get the ascendancies and feel like I'd tried the build, then started again.

But I disliked a lot of the POE systems, especially the gem system (and no passive respec)—which I found very restrictive, and forcing you into a spam 1 button playstyle. So as soon as I heard that POE2 would be doing away with that and allowing you to 6-link all of your skills, I've basically been waiting (for years) for this game on the understanding that it would fix these issues.

Early Access experience: Queue early access, and I'm having a blast! I rolled a few different classes and completed the first Act to see how they played, then decided to level a warrior a bit. The new skill gem system feels great: I can try out all these different skills, fool around with the supports, and it's awesome. And I know that there's more tiers of skills and supports waiting (and lots more to be added to the game over time). Awesome!

I'm getting in my 20's, and I've built most of the tier 1 support gems that are usable, and most of my skills have the max 2 support gems they can hold. So I'm looking forward to unlocking more support slots for all the tier 2 supports I'll be getting soon. 

I start to wonder when that will happen, so I look it up and discover the Jeweler's orb system. I'm immediately crestfallen, and all of my excitement for the game is hamstrung. I start researching on Youtube and Reddit to see how the system works.

My expectations: I had understood that POE2 was supposed to make build variety easier, and that had been my experience for the first 20 levels. I assumed (based on my expectations of how a normal progression system would work) that at a certain point I would unlock the next row of support gem slots. I was guessing: end of Act 2, 4 and 6 to unlock new slots. 

That way by the end of the campaign (and going into maps) you would have all of your support gems unlocked (and most ascendancy points), so you would actually go into the endgame with a fully unlocked build. So you would have 6-links for all of your slots, and could actually make use of the support gem system.

The Jeweler's orb system as I understand it: Based on what I've seen, the actual reality is that you are drip fed Jeweler's orbs. I haven't run it myself, so I can't be sure on the drop rates. But from what people are reporting, it sounds like you'll get lesser orbs sporadically in the second half of the campaign. And then the greater and perfect orbs are exceedingly rare, to the point that people are deep into the endgame without getting more than 1 six-link.

And not only that: the orbs don't apply to the "slot" on your skill bar (which is what I had assumed would be the obvious thing). They apply only to the ONE skill. Which means that you are basically forced (again!) into prioritizing one skill.

So instead of needing 9 of the perfect orbs (and then done), you hypothetically need one for every skill that you can use (if you at all might want to play around with it). Even with the current active skills in the game, the grind feels impossible—and more skills are going to be added, making it even worse.

That system basically means that I will never use those orbs. I will put it in the stash, because I don't want the buyer's remorse of applying it to one skill now, only to find out in 5 levels that I want to build around a different skill (but functionally can't because I don't have good slots unlocked for that skill).

My feedback: A build should be fully unlocked somewhere between the end of the campaign (my personal preference), or half way into maps (at the latest). Meaning you should have at least 1 or 2 six-links by the end of the campaign, and all skills six-linked partway into maps.

I don't have a problem with using the orbs (rather than unlocking entire rows with a quest), but only if the drop rate is increased exponentially (with guaranteed sources from campaign quests). 

And if you insist on applying them to the gem (instead of the gem slot which can be used for any gem), then you need to increase the drops "doubly" exponentially. To the point that I can use them without remorse because I know I'll get more if I need them.

I would also be happy to have a system like in Last Epoch where SSF could get a huge increase to drop for these types of items (since we won't be trading for them).

Final thoughts: Currently, POE2 (somehow) feels worse for trying a build than POE1. At least in POE I could get a tabula rasa and a 5-link weapon and be 90% of the way to trying out a build. And if I wanted to put in a different gem, I could!

I want to have power and build progression to chase while I play. I want to have a good power curve, so that I constantly feel like I'm getting more powerful and trying new things. That's how these games work, and I understand that.

But the power curve for skill gems currently feels completely wrong. The power curve for making a build shouldn't be 500 hours per character. If people want to grind maps for currency to get the perfectly rolled gear, let them do that. But I should be able to build a character that lets me try out a complete build in 50 hours max. 

To be clear, I'm frustrated because so much is infinitely better in POE2 than in 1. The new gem system, spells that actually synergize so you aren't just spamming one button, being able to respec passives, putting all of the classes in the middle of the tree so you can try weird paths (although I'd still like shorter highways for this), and so on. 

It's way friendlier for new players and casuals, while retaining all of the complexity and interesting build diversity.

Which is why I don't understand hamstringing all of that. The Jeweler's orb system discourages people from actually interacting with the skill gem system and being able to try interesting builds. After all these steps forward, it feels like a huge step back. 

The game should be fun, and the Jeweler's orb system, as it currently is, doesn't feel fun (for me at least). It's literally sucking enthusiasm to play out of me, when I was having a blast with the game.

They need to let us at least combine them to tier them up. Stuff like this shouldn't be tied to extreme RNG or trading. I had to vaal a t3 to get a 4th slot.

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Karishin#7986 wrote:

They need to let us at least combine them to tier them up. Stuff like this shouldn't be tied to extreme RNG or trading. I had to vaal a t3 to get a 4th slot.

And most casual players aren't (in my opinion) going to interact with something like the Vaal orb—too rare, too complex, not explained in the game. Basic character progression should be obvious. I shouldn't need to read a guide on using Vaal orbs to "hack" my way into leveling up my character power.

You have some good points, but you have ones that are just plain stupid.

Nine six-links immediately after the campaign?
Full build in 50 hours?

I can see you didn't play PoE 1 that much.
It looks like you would be more satisfied with Diablo.

Campaign in PoE is a tutorial.
The actual game starts after the campaign.
What is the point of the end game if your build is done after the campaign?
The main reason for PoE's longevity is that you can put 300 hours into the build and it still might not be "finished."

What I will agree with is that the higher tier jeweler's orbs need a higher drop chance. I am level 78 and have never seen even one Greater orb.

"

rastaqki#6957 wrote:

You have some good points, but you have ones that are just plain stupid.

I've played a few hundred hours of POE1 (in addition to Diablo and lots of other ARPGS, like I said). I understand that some people play POE to grind the end game for hundreds of hours, but that's not my playstyle (as I said in my post).

I would argue that unless GGG only wants to target the most invested 5% of players, then there are a lot of players with my playstyle that they might want to keep in mind.

Personally, I think that something like being able to fully engage with the skill system of the game isn't something that should take hundreds of hours.

You asked "What is the point of the end game if your build is done after the campaign?"

I would argue that you should be able to use the endgame to 1) try out and test different builds (which means you need to actually have those builds available to try), 2) chase perfectly rolled gear or particular uniques 3) build up gem quality, armor quality, and other incremental forms of player power, and 4) try to complete challenges of scaling difficulty to test/prove yourself.

I think there's plenty to do in the endgame for people that want to do that. But for me, I want to try out different builds, and if you ask me to take hundreds of hours to try out one build, I just won't.

I don't have the interest, or the free time. So I'll either have a worse experience and not get to see the full skill system, or find something else to do.

You don't need nine six-links to test a build.
You don't even need one.

Testing the gameplay style of the build is simple.
You don't need full power to do that.

Unless you are looking for builds with the highest power.
Then, go and select one of the meta builds.
You won't make anything better.

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AzureBard#7999 wrote:

I would argue that you should be able to use the endgame to 1) try out and test different builds (which means you need to actually have those builds available to try), 2) chase perfectly rolled gear or particular uniques 3) build up gem quality, armor quality, and other incremental forms of player power, and 4) try to complete challenges of scaling difficulty to test/prove yourself.

What is your highest level in PoE 1? From this description, it looks like you didn't play the end game much. Chasing uniques? Improving quality? Are you for real? Unless you are playing SSF, nobody is chasing uniques for their build.

I am not interested in testing a 99% finished build and upgrading it by 0.1%. That's how Diablo works. I played Diablo for one week, had a perfect character, destroyed everything in the game, and had nothing left to do. What is the point of making another build if I can have it perfect in three days?

I want to feel significant progress and an increase in power throughout the end game. I like big power upgrades after saving currency for that one item. One support gem can add 30% more damage. That's one of the most significant power spikes you can have. Upgrading it should be spread over time.

"

rastaqki#6957 wrote:

I want to feel significant progress and an increase in power throughout the end game. I like big power upgrades after saving currency for that one item. One support gem can add 30% more damage. That's one of the most significant power spikes you can have. Upgrading it should be spread over time.

I agree with that. In the end, it's just a difference in perspective/preference. Like I said, I'm speaking as someone who plays SSF and isn't that interested in grinding the end game for hundreds of hours.

For those kinds of players (maybe you) I understand wanting to have progression that's drip fed to you for hundreds of hours. And I can understand wanting the support gems to be part of that, since they're an exciting bump in build power/flexibility.

At the end of the day, support gems aren't as powerful anymore since they're restricted to one each, so adding a 4th or 5th one isn't as big a deal. But I like to tinker with different skills and support combos, and I'd like that to be more available.

It seems like a lot of people feel that way, even if not everyone would push the progression as quickly as I personally would prefer.

If I were GGG, trying to find a reasonable middle ground, I would:

1) Make it so that the jeweler's orbs unlock the skill slot (not the 1 skill gem) so that you can swap out different gems to try (like you could in POE). That's my biggest gripe with the current system.
2) Time it so that by the time you've done your 4th ascendancy, you have at least "several" slots fully maxed out. So put in enough guaranteed drops to get that far.

After that, keep the drop rate super low and let people work for the rest over the whole end game.

That's my opinion, anyway.