death penalty, race to 100: philosophical conflicts?

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Mashgesture#2912 wrote:

No, you want to face roll into a map and think dying should have no penalty, you can play other games. GGG has been clear about this.

The fact that they not only have not listened, thankfully, to no exp death penalty for years but doubled down on POE2 and you outright lose the map now, tells you their philosophy on what dying in this game should carry. And I agree.

You want an everyone’s game or “catering to the 50%”, play D4 that’s what that game does. And it’s the largest reason that game fails

next time read my actual post and understand it if you want to make a meaningful comment that is worth responding to.

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Draegnarrr#2823 wrote:

However to go to your original title Snorkle the problem is a philosophical one but nothing to do with 100, its because a not insignificant portion of their game is setup to enable build development which is the cornerstone of ARPGs imo.

What they want is to avoid what PoE1 has become, which is everyone cuts the maximum defensive corners (will come back to this) while still completing content in the permissible portal allocation......

i appreciate the things you have said, however i am responding to very specific comments made by jonathan in the interview with ghazzy and darth.


they put it to him that if dying once means you brick your map completely, and actually if you die 4 or 5 times early on you will brick your entire atlas and it will be force reset, then why do we still need a death penalty? there is now a massive cost to dying, you will lose any content you run if you die once. you cant die in any boss encounter, any map, why do we still need an xp penalty?


this was the question put to jonathan.



he said that they have completely removed the death penalty from the campaign, and previously he has stated we expect you to die multiple times to most bosses in order to learn them through the campaign. thats the level of punishing the content will be in terms of the game play, and those bosses will reset every time so you have to do the encounter deathless from 100% heath each time you go back.


he then basically agreed that having such a high penalty for death in maps where you brick the entire map with 1 death is a high punishment, but the reason they also have kept the xp penalty on top of this is specifically because of the race to lvl100 on the ladder in softcore.


he goes on to talk about maybe we dont need a death penalty in endgame before lvl90 or something because thats only where its effecting the lvl100 ladder race.







like i said in my post ive defended keeping the death penalty in poe1 for nearly 12 years at this point, for all the reasons you point out. but we are now entering a game where bosses in campaign reset if you die, where any death in a map not only loses you the map but blocks you from moving forward on your atlas along that path. this changes things massively, you cant die in content and then jump back in like you dont give a damn, you will lose all your content, brick your entire atlas and be reset into an atlas where you have to make large moves out to find any meaningful content again because meaningful content will not spawn within the the reveal range of a new atlas to prevent people resetting their atlas to snipe good content.

this is different, the game has been retuned to make dying something that is expected, the game is designed so that you will die trying to learn things, and at the same time now all content is 1 death = hard fail and you lose everything.

so were looking at a game that kills you way more than poe1 intentionally and then punishes you multiple times harder than poe1 for that death.

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Echothesis#7320 wrote:

Good, means I can safely skip Poe2 if it will be on the same combat balance quality as Poe1 is:)

See you in two weeks. :)

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AintCare#6513 wrote:

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Snorkle_uk#0761 wrote:

the reason for the highly punishing death mechanic in maps is so that you cant run 75% of a rare valuable node, intentionally die and then get to rerun the first 75% of it over and over.

uhm.. can someone enlighten me how is this viable? is the instance not saved upon death, but somehow saved through the user logging out? because you know, you can run 75% of 'rare juicy node' leave through the portal.. and log out, log in, repeat

you have to complete the maps in 1 go deathless otherwise you fail them. if you run 50% of that map, leave through a portal, go back in, then you have 50% of the map still to run. if you die you fail the map you would have to do the map again from the start so you could just do that intentionally and keep running that first 50% over and over infinitely which is a problem is this is a very rare and valuable map that you are now milking forever through intentionally dying.

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Echothesis#7320 wrote:

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jonathan talked about still needing an xp death penalty because of the race to 100, how legit is the race if the person winning it can die 1000 times just zerg running content with mass dps vs making a proper build and playing properly to get there? this was the thinking behind still having the penalty.

Good, means I can safely skip Poe2 if it will be on the same combat balance quality as Poe1 is:) This "playing properly" reasoning is not an excuse to subject players to penalty if reasons for deaths keep being beyond player control or reaction time. I wonder if drastically overgearing and overstacking all possible defenses just to avoid penalty is a "proper play", in Mr. Jonathan's opinion.

Thanks you, that's a win win if I ever saw it!

We get a meaningful game in PoE2, and you (and like-minded) get to stay on the PoE1 forums and complain every week.

Everyone's a winner!

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AintCare#6513 wrote:

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Snorkle_uk#0761 wrote:

you have to complete the maps in 1 go deathless otherwise you fail them. if you run 50% of that map, leave through a portal, go back in, then you have 50% of the map still to run. if you die you fail the map you would have to do the map again from the start so you could just do that intentionally and keep running that first 50% over and over infinitely which is a problem is this is a very rare and valuable map that you are now milking forever through intentionally dying.

there is no problem- if you die, the instance doesn't reset, we had this here since the beginning. my question is- if the instance gets saved on log out, why it can't do that on death? if its saved on log out, do you brick the map when you portal out half way through and start a new one? if not, THEN you have the problem you just described. but it comes from leaving the map, not dying in it.

i presume if you leave a map, start a new one else where without completing the first one then it will be failed and hence bricked? i would presume it would be the same as dying in it but i dont actually know i havent heard them speak about that situation.

i think they dont want you to be able to die and then go back into the content. this is a new philosophy where you have to do the whole thing in 1 go deathless. its essentially a second form of death penalty they have now created and its being implemented in all boss encounters and trials through the campaign and in all maps/endgame bosses.












hence people question why we still need an xp penalty, and the response was purely for legitimising the lvl100 ladder race in softcore. which i get, i fully respect that and agree in theory. i also respect and agree with dying to a boss/map making it failed in theory. i also agree with making content harder and having people learn via death, in theory.

i do not agree that all 3 of these things are compatible put into the same game.

this was the amount of people watching the poe2 reveal stream being put on and reshared via all the twitch streamers on their own channels the other night...



nearly half a million people were watching that live. im a firm believer in feedback posters not ventriloquising 'new players', you see vets in here all the time talking about stuff they want put into the game and dressing it up with "oh but its not for me its for the new players im making presumptions on behalf of". i feel like thats a really cheap way people avoid taking responsibility for their personally wishes on these forums.

but thats nearly half a million people watching, this game moved way beyond the niche of diehard gamers who came here in 2013 fleeing D3 along the way. it was a game designed for hardcore play back them, its now a game designed for softcore and for a much wider audience hence we have 250k concurrent players on league launch.

look at the potential size poe2 could be growing to, do we really think going to a more soulslike approach of killing players frequently while massively upping the penalties for death in a game where people already died a lot and it felt really punishing to die is how we want to launch this game to this amount of people?




launch in a safteynet configuration that wont make people ragequit and then work out the correct balances from there. if the alternative is having a the ladder push meta be a bit cheesy, then take that, take it and then fix that down the line.

I'm a staunch defender of the XP penalty. I believe in the need for meaningful punishment when you die. But I do see where Snorkle is coming from and don't disagree with those points. If the new norm is that dying a lot basically locks you out of high level/valuable content, then that itself is a good enough punishment in my eyes. If there is no point where you have so many possible continuation points that you could just afford to die every other map, then that is artificially an xp penalty in itself (as you are forced to do much lower content when your atlas resets).

Don't get me wrong, I personally would love to keep the xp penalty. But if this new design means there's already a ton of punishment for deaths, then I'm fine with them doing away with it.

Read most of this and my take is I am 100% fine with…
Xp penalty,
Boss resetting (think that bosses are tactical and we need to learn and act is a positive)
Even happy with the one portal issue as an option like SSF is.

What I am not happy with is one portal in solo play in softcore and been posting here about it my “ PoE2: One death in map and its bricked.” thread

It’s a good idea and would love to be able to pick it as an extra tier of difficulty but not as a default to normal softcore

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sidtherat#1310 wrote:

all this will achieve is 95% of skills and builds being not played because 'why risk it'


why? because this is still POE, still the same people with the same ideas - one of them is the shortest 'time to kill' ever in ARPG history.

I disagree with this, for the exact same reason you just spelled out.

"Penalties = 95% of skills unused" is the bellwether that people keep saying is going to happen.....only for that never to be the case.

The vast, vast, vast, vast majority of players do not compete for fastest times, or highest div/hr, or <insertclassicexcusehere>.....these things are generally true for such a small fraction of the game.

You claim this is "still PoE", still the same people etc. We have thousands of builds in existence, we have players utilizing nearly every single skill the game has to offer right now. It really doesn't even matter that there is a "meta"....there will always be players that play at their own pace, with their own favorite skill. And hefty penalties will do nothing to change that, because they already don't.

If the veteran players continue to tell others that "95% of skills and builds are not playable because they are 20% slower/more expensive than y build".....they are the problem. It is certainly not the game or any form of death penalty. That is the thinking of a jaded player who has done this thousands of times and is only interested in being "faster, faster faster". Well.....there is a heck of a lot more to PoE than speed. Yes, that includes PoE 1 and it will be ever more true in PoE 2.

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Snorkle_uk#0761 wrote:

next time read my actual post and understand it if you want to make a meaningful comment that is worth responding to.

So if you want to say its not worth responding to, then you didnt need to post at me.

A bit redundant.

My response has everything to do with your thread. And your main point here:

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Snorkle_uk#0761 wrote:

my thoughts: both of these are fair points but the end result is overkill and in a game where you hope to have a broader audience than poe1 i dont think its a good idea to be even more punishing on death.

To which I replied:

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Mashgesture#2912 wrote:

No, you want to face roll into a map and think dying should have no penalty, you can play other games. GGG has been clear about this.

The fact that they not only have not listened, thankfully, to no exp death penalty for years but doubled down on POE2 and you outright lose the map now, tells you their philosophy on what dying in this game should carry. And I agree.

You want an everyone’s game or “catering to the 50%”, play D4 that’s what that game does. And it’s the largest reason that game fails

It seems you just want an echo chamber of people agreeing with you? Rather than any retractors?

My response is completely on topic.

Make sure this is an open discussion on the forums, and not a closed one.


Thank you!