A balanced action combat game with stat progression? Not possible <3

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jsuslak313 wrote:

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Tesrali wrote:

Thank you alhazred70 for the explanation. I admit the title is a bit obtuse but I think that the tile is the fundamental contradiction between two visions of the game.

Can you elaborate on this? HOW is it a contradiction in the first place?

From my perspective, there is NO contradiction between "balance" and stat progression. I also don't see these "two visions" that you describe.

Unless you are saying PoE is trying to be like Dark Souls....because even by your own admission, it isn't nor is it even capable of being souls-like based on its core mechanics and style.

If you are saying that the memory game, or the balls, or the ground degens are somehow souls-like.....they aren't. Non-souls games have plenty of boss obstacles that you have to avoid or dodge. Some are good (ball phase, die beams), some are bad (maven memory game, ground diahrrea). Plus, if you really wanted to, you can create builds that tank these (stat check!). The actual 1hko moves are perfectly telegraphed and dodgeable in basically every boss fight, they just require different levels of practice. Dark Souls is completely different from the ground up.

You were too hyperbolic in your responses so far, for me to take you too seriously, but I'll let that go.

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Do Mario games have stats?
Does Zelda?
How is Mario built from the ground up?
Isn't Maven more of a Mario mechanic than a POE mechanic? And if so, what is it doing in the pinnacle fight?
Does Mario have more exact positioning than POE?

You seem to think that the uber pinnacles have slow one-shots which is just wrong. You can check out my profile if you're interested in the build I was trying them on. I am, admittedly, probably a pretty bad pilot. I usually play SSF and can kill Maven, hence enjoying all the systems. I haven't played trade league since Delirium. I came to trade because I've more or less given up solo farming a mageblood in SSF. I have one now and I had a ton of fun farming it out in Back to Basics maps.

If you don't understand the relationship between POE's design changes and Dark Souls then I encourage you to check out some of Johnathan's comments on the issue of action combat. <3

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jsuslak313 wrote:

Unless you are saying PoE is trying to be like Dark Souls....because even by your own admission, it isn't nor is it even capable of being souls-like based on its core mechanics and style.

Thats the jist I got and what I agree with. I am pretty sure I have a post-Exilecon thread about how poorly suited POE/POE2 is to being a Souls-like. I stated many of the same reasons including the fact that an ARPG is about character/gear and how you progress them and a Souls-like is about reflexes memorization and precision.

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alhazred70 wrote:

I'm sure you'll get the usual chorus of people who are insulted that you don't like something about the game, or tell you the game is perfectly designed, "not meant for you", or that its supposed to be a game all about making Ben_ and AlkaizerX have a hard time and in so doing make a lot of content exclusive of 99.999% of players.

But I for one completely agree.

All preceding ARPG's have been character progression games where the character's build, and gear are what makes the largest impact on the end game. I really hate seeing this creeping towards player skill being the focus in POE; and especially POE2's seeming insistence that what ARPG's are about is Souls-Like bashing of your head into a Wall made out of reflexes, short term pattern recall, and precision movement based design obstacles.

D2 wasn't hard. Honestly Diablo 1 was harder than D2. POE was "the spiritual successor to D2" it was supposed to be anyway.

I'm still waiting for that and being honest I'm aware I'll never get it from GGG anyway. But it sure could be CLOSER or a mode of the game without upsetting too much.

Honestly I think GGG struggles massively in trying to deliver challenge that's skillful. Really its mostly boils down to increasingly steep gear checks and certain bosses just have "you die now" mechanics that turn off huge parts of your stats like ignoring resists or disabling leech/regen and are meant to obliterate you if they graze your toes unless your character is ridiculously overpowered. I personally don't think a lot of the bosses are fun to fight and not satisfying to beat. Also very frustrating to die to.

I don't enjoy when bosses or mechanics of something your're fighting demands fine and precise movement in poe because the movement is not nearly good enough to make that make any sense. You're going to have a huge movement multiplier most of the time through flasks passives and your boots and I'm not getting any younger so I don't twitch react as quick as I used to.

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Tesrali wrote:

You were too hyperbolic in your responses so far, for me to take you too seriously, but I'll let that go.

~

Do Mario games have stats?
Does Zelda?
How is Mario built from the ground up?
Isn't Maven more of a Mario mechanic than a POE mechanic? And if so, what is it doing in the pinnacle fight?
Does Mario have more exact positioning than POE?

Hyperbolic....nothing in my responses is hyperbolic in the least. It is direct and completely related to the game.

Yet you respond with things about Mario and Zelda....


I already agreed that Maven memory game sucks and I agree it has no business in the game. But to say its MORE of a mario mechanic than a PoE mechanic is.....ridiculous. The memory game is a small part of the Maven fight. And it most certainly is not anything like any mario game I've ever played. But it IS like many arpg's I've played: avoiding patterns of activity from bosses and learning mechanics. The "memory game" at its core is nothing more than avoiding a telegraphed slam. You complete it in the same way you would any other boss mechanic. It just happens to have 3-6 dodges in a row, instead of just 1.

A game with elements of other genres is fine, and doesn't at all mean the entire game is now heading towards a new direction. Your stats still matter a great deal in this game in Maven, as well as in Uber fights. But skill should ALSO matter in the highest pinnacle content. It should NOT just be a straight up "out-gear it" for anyone except the person with maybe the most absolutely perfect defensive gear imaginable. That does NOT make this game souls-like....it just makes it a challenging arpg.

And the harder the content is, especially boss fights such as ubers, the LESS it should be overcome by simple stats and more about your skill and reflexes.


You didn't provide any of the clarification that I asked for, and instead dug into a totally unrelated strawman argument.

I was going to give you the benefit of the doubt, but after that response its pretty clear you don't exactly know what you want or what you are talking about.

It's actually very easy to have balanced stat progression.
The tricky part is balancing player options.

No matter how perfectly you design skills and features; More options = more power.
Unlike stats. The amount of power is a variable based on what's being mixed.

In the end you can only have it one of two ways. Perfectly balanced with little options or "close enough" with lots of options. Not saying PoE is "close enough", far from it in fact.

EDIT: Also Zelda has both stat and option progression. You gains heats which are stats and you gain items like boomerang, lantern, better sword/shield. Mario 3 started with options where you could save power up cards to use later to make maps easier.

Also never really felt that stagnant feeling with enemies leveling with you when I played Diablo 4. If you're attentive you always get better Legendary rolls which outweigh raw stats. There were gaps when moving from difficulty tiers but not so much levels.

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Xzorn wrote:

Also never really felt that stagnant feeling with enemies leveling with you when I played Diablo 4. If you're attentive you always get better Legendary rolls which outweigh raw stats. There were gaps when moving from difficulty tiers but not so much levels.

really? this is the aspect of the game that made me nope out the hardest. I had to push down boredom and force myself to keep going so many times... The main issue is every level feels exactly the same, every monster pack feels exactly the same, every area feels and mostly looks exactly the same. There's zero sense of progression, there's zero sense that if I put good gear on I'll obliterate stuff for a while, there's no juicy power spikes nor challenging struggle points. Its all just a giant bland soup of sameness and mediocrity.

Its like 70 levels of Act 3 Diablo 2

and to be honest I would much rather play 70 levels of D2 jungle, at least theirs trav and kurask farming...

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alhazred70 wrote:

really? this is the aspect of the game that made me nope out the hardest. I had to push down boredom and force myself to keep going so many times... The main issue is every level feels exactly the same, every monster pack feels exactly the same, every area feels and mostly looks exactly the same. There's zero sense of progression, there's zero sense that if I put good gear on I'll obliterate stuff for a while, there's no juicy power spikes nor challenging struggle points. Its all just a giant bland soup of sameness and mediocrity.

Its like 70 levels of Act 3 Diablo 2

and to be honest I would much rather play 70 levels of D2 jungle, at least theirs trav and kurask farming...

Oh, it's all very much on repeat but my point was that it wasn't really the enemies leveling with you much as a total lack of variety or dynamics in the game. I jumped into higher difficulty Tiers early in levels and those gave me some good spikes to work through. You get that new Tier gear and you're blasting again. If I recall, level 70+ is were it gets really stagnant but most people weren't even pushing 100 and complaining about the auto leveling.

Ideally you want content to scale with the player in any game with RPG mechanics. The magic is making it not feel like you're doing that. Throw in a few easy encounters to let the player feel their progression, slam them with a hard encounter that then makes them feel like they need more progression. Content scaling with the player isn't new. It's just not so blunted.

I feel the same in PoE as I did in D4. Once you hit 92-94 you just kinda flounder. There's little game progression until you can finally get an upgrade and push more. I've had many builds that clear the atlas and all normal bosses in 2 weeks then I just sit there wondering if I feel like grinding just to kill Ubers and the answer is usually no so I make another build and end in the same spot.

Variety helps disguise that dead zone in PoE but it's there.