A balanced action combat game with stat progression? Not possible <3

I enjoy POE's loot, systems, setting, customizability, and development cycles. I'm very thankful for the game we've got. This league I made it to uber pinnacles. (I've been playing on and off since Bestiary.) POE is a game about loot and stats. Why do the boss fights feature systems that we don't see throughout the campaign?

1. I'm not the only boy with a poor working memory even though I can recite to you Roman emperors and what they were known for because my long-term recall is great. The Maven memory game is a mini-game with no place in the rest of the game. Putting it in a pinnacle fight is inappropriate. This is about setting player expectations.

2. I'm not the only boy who---being over the hump of life---can't click the exact point on the screen where I have to be to not get hit by an exarch ball, or a maven degen. POE has always had poor positioning control because we are not WASD. Please do not demand of the player movements which are "too exact."

3. POE is not Dark Souls. Dark Souls has very little stat progression, slow and methodical combat, blocking, etc. The entire design of our bosses executing an attack once a second is much too fast for proper action combat. Dark Souls games are amazing but those design principles have to be respected to create that experience. POE's design is such that stats are central to the game. The Uber Pinnacles should reflect this.

4. POE 2 seems to already be struggling in its design because of the above. You can not make a balanced action combat game with stat progression. This is the exact same problem that a game like World of Warcraft faces in creating fun PvP. They had to create entirely separate stats for the PvP to be fun. I hate to say this, but you would have to adjust boss stats to the player, or vice versa, for bosses to be fun. You guys are literally dealing with a cursed problem. Guild wars 2 was never able to solve this even though they basically destroyed all loot. You won't be able to either.

5. My stupid-simple solutions: 1) bosses should be slow and completely dogeable if initiating a one shot, 2) there should be no demand for exact movement since the game's movement is bad, 3) there should be constant damage to the player to force them to pass a stat-check, 4) there should be enrage timers to penalize people taking forever. An uber fight still can't violate these principles. It can make the fight longer, but it shouldn't break the game's core design philosophy by introducing things that turn off our stats in order to challenge us. I don't farm gear just to get one shot by something that happens in the time it takes for me to ping the server.

Love ya'll thank you for developing the game.

"You cannot make a balanced action combat game with stat progression"

uh.......what? You DO realize balance does NOT mean equal for everyone? Balance means a bell curve, which fits PRECISELY into the stat progression game design. As you get stronger, encounters become easier. The "balance" comes from that hard --> normal ----> easy progression. This is what is SO BAD about Diablo 4 monster scaling with YOUR level. The game never gets any easier, your growth as a character is almost never felt at all.

What you are suggesting is: make all your choices for your character, all your gear rarity and strength, all your gameplay....irrelevant. No thank you.


The problem with the game is NOT that it can't be balanced....its that it is being balanced around the WRONG midpoint.


Hard no to "periodic damage" just for being in the presence of a boss....wtf kind of design is this? Also hard no to "enrage" mechanics....how is that ANY better than everything you complained about re: ground effects and screen nonsense? There are FAST builds and there are SLOW builds. Both should be able to tackle bosses.

You are older and can't click as precisely or dodge as meticulously....so you want to AUTOMATICALLY die instead? Not even have the CHANCE to dodge? lol come on man what are you thinking

I'm sure you'll get the usual chorus of people who are insulted that you don't like something about the game, or tell you the game is perfectly designed, "not meant for you", or that its supposed to be a game all about making Ben_ and AlkaizerX have a hard time and in so doing make a lot of content exclusive of 99.999% of players.

But I for one completely agree.

All preceding ARPG's have been character progression games where the character's build, and gear are what makes the largest impact on the end game. I really hate seeing this creeping towards player skill being the focus in POE; and especially POE2's seeming insistence that what ARPG's are about is Souls-Like bashing of your head into a Wall made out of reflexes, short term pattern recall, and precision movement based design obstacles.

D2 wasn't hard. Honestly Diablo 1 was harder than D2. POE was "the spiritual successor to D2" it was supposed to be anyway.

I'm still waiting for that and being honest I'm aware I'll never get it from GGG anyway. But it sure could be CLOSER or a mode of the game without upsetting too much.

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alhazred70 wrote:

I'm sure you'll get the usual chorus of people who are insulted that you don't like something about the game, or tell you the game is perfectly designed, "not meant for you", or that its supposed to be a game all about making Ben_ and AlkaizerX have a hard time and in so doing make a lot of content exclusive of 99.999% of players.

But I for one completely agree.

All preceding ARPG's have been character progression games where the character's build, and gear are what makes the largest impact on the end game. I really hate seeing this creeping towards player skill being the focus in POE; and especially POE2's seeming insistence that what ARPG's are about is Souls-Like bashing of your head into a Wall made out of reflexes, short term pattern recall, and precision movement based design obstacles.

D2 wasn't hard. Honestly Diablo 1 was harder than D2. POE was "the spiritual successor to D2" it was supposed to be anyway.

I'm still waiting for that and being honest I'm aware I'll never get it from GGG anyway. But it sure could be CLOSER or a mode of the game without upsetting too much.

You didn't even read his post man.......you "completely agree" with the opposite of his point. In fact, he makes contradictory statements on completely opposite sides of what he "wants" from the game. Can't be balanced around stats....yet wants stats to play a bigger role on "checks" for bosses. Wants bosses to scale with the player...yet ALSO wants stats to be checked via automated damage or timers?


In fact, re-reading it after your response.....he doesn't even make a coherent point himself. Says it CANT be balanced around stats while also saying its NOT dark souls (little stat progression) and the game should be balanced around stats. No skill or gameplay at all....just hard stat checks or automatic unavoidable death. No matter WHAT your build is.

I feel like their title had nothing to do with their complaints... I kinda had the same vibe coming in, was all ready to state my argument: like sure you can't make an ARPG perfectly balanced but you can make it so the extents are reasonable so to speak. Like the floor doesn't have to be dogshit while the ceiling is something stupid, lets say the difference in scalability between Static strike and Tornado SHot; but that turned into a post about the games shift towards player skill because thats what the OP actually seems to be on about.

His only points are that: 1) he doesn't like the memory game and 2) he can't dodge bosses.

He then goes on to criticize PoE 2, a game that does not exist yet and one that OP likely has not played at any of the conventions....

And then his suggestions boil down to a FAR WORSE balanced game than before...everything treated equally as NOTHING. That's not balance.

And then your response above had absolutely nothing to do with anything he wrote in his post......if anything on the opposite side. And yet you start with the passive-aggressive "pre-emptively attack everyone who disagrees!"

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jsuslak313 wrote:

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alhazred70 wrote:

I'm sure you'll get the usual chorus of people who are insulted that you don't like something about the game, or tell you the game is perfectly designed, "not meant for you", or that its supposed to be a game all about making Ben_ and AlkaizerX have a hard time and in so doing make a lot of content exclusive of 99.999% of players.

But I for one completely agree.

All preceding ARPG's have been character progression games where the character's build, and gear are what makes the largest impact on the end game. I really hate seeing this creeping towards player skill being the focus in POE; and especially POE2's seeming insistence that what ARPG's are about is Souls-Like bashing of your head into a Wall made out of reflexes, short term pattern recall, and precision movement based design obstacles.

D2 wasn't hard. Honestly Diablo 1 was harder than D2. POE was "the spiritual successor to D2" it was supposed to be anyway.

I'm still waiting for that and being honest I'm aware I'll never get it from GGG anyway. But it sure could be CLOSER or a mode of the game without upsetting too much.

You didn't even read his post man.......you "completely agree" with the opposite of his point. In fact, he makes contradictory statements on completely opposite sides of what he "wants" from the game. Can't be balanced around stats....yet wants stats to play a bigger role on "checks" for bosses. Wants bosses to scale with the player...yet ALSO wants stats to be checked via automated damage or timers?


In fact, re-reading it after your response.....he doesn't even make a coherent point himself. Says it CANT be balanced around stats while also saying its NOT dark souls (little stat progression) and the game should be balanced around stats. No skill or gameplay at all....just hard stat checks or automatic unavoidable death. No matter WHAT your build is.

No offense I think his title tripped you up. I get why anyone might be confused but I think if you ignore the title and re-read it'll make more sense. In that spirit I've also just re-read his post this is what I read:

Point 1 is about aging player skill/memory literally about the Maven Memory game

Me: 100% agreed I've posted similar thoughts regularly

2. is about precise movement mentions WASD player skill

Me: 100% agreed I've posted similar thoughts regularly

3. literally mentions Darksouls outlines how it doesn't have serious RPG stats impact (being mostly about player skill/replex/memorization of patterns) and how an ARPG isn't really all that compatible with those ideas (see point 2 Souls-like games need precision). Its implied that ARPG's are about your character and gear (stats) where DS is about your reflexes and pattern recognition.

If the OP had titled this thread "why POE shouldn't try to be a souls-like" the body of his feedback would have made more sense. But that is the body of his feedback:

Point 4: you can't make a SOULS LIKE that has good combat but also has the ability to outgear that combat with stats. he's just stated it poorly but I get what he means. At least I think I do.

Point 5 bosses should be slower and less precision should be required in POE, bosses should have DPS checks (enrage timer etc.)

Doubling down on the "gear your character and make a good build"

To be fair I don't fully agree with this part but its a quibble. I do fully agree with the basic sentiment I just don't care for enrage or anything remotely smelling of a "phase" I think any boss can be designed so the whole entire fight is a gear/build check.

^I'm not being bogged down by the title. You aren't connecting the post, but rather looking at it as completely separate, individual points.


The overall "point" of the post is #5. This is his synthesis of points 1-4 and how he would fix it. And you just said in your previous post that you disagree with this (saying its a quibble). That is the entire central idea in the OP and you disagree with it.

BECAUSE 1-4, 5 is needed. 1-4 are used to defend #5, not as separate entities.


I don't like maven. I don't like ground throwup. But that isn't his point, those are simply examples.

Thank you alhazred70 for the explanation. I admit the title is a bit obtuse but I think that the tile is the fundamental contradiction between two visions of the game.

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Tesrali wrote:

Thank you alhazred70 for the explanation. I admit the title is a bit obtuse but I think that the tile is the fundamental contradiction between two visions of the game.

Can you elaborate on this? HOW is it a contradiction in the first place?

From my perspective, there is NO contradiction between "balance" and stat progression. I also don't see these "two visions" that you describe.

Unless you are saying PoE is trying to be like Dark Souls....because even by your own admission, it isn't nor is it even capable of being souls-like based on its core mechanics and style.

If you are saying that the memory game, or the balls, or the ground degens are somehow souls-like.....they aren't. Non-souls games have plenty of boss obstacles that you have to avoid or dodge. Some are good (ball phase, die beams), some are bad (maven memory game, ground diahrrea). Plus, if you really wanted to, you can create builds that tank these (stat check!). The actual 1hko moves are perfectly telegraphed and dodgeable in basically every boss fight, they just require different levels of practice. Dark Souls is completely different from the ground up.