Would like to grab Vaal Pact, but i think it's too far of a reach and too much of sacrifice

this is my passive tree

my es is 5.9k, my crit chance is 41.4% with a shield. i could ditch 7 crit nodes for the Vaal Pact, or would getting that 10% shock chance node and the reduced mana nodes + Celestial Walker in the templar tree?

Its depend on the dps you have and how you manage to stay alive while dealing with ele reflect/lightning thorns mobs.

I have a skill tree that look like yours with Vaal Pact in to get more survivability. Here if your interested in the idea. Weird as it seem your post seem like a answer to the one I made on previous post. Here my idea to get it done:

Vaal Pact for spellcaster = worst idea ever.
Reason:
20% of 5,9k ES = 1180 leech/sec
To reach that with the 6% on your LL gem you need to do 1180*100/6 = 19657 dps.
Won't happen that often. Besides, the excess leech is NOT wasted, just postponed (works like using a life flask).
If you really don't want to hit the cap, buy a quality life leech. It ups the cap. With 10% qual on your gem the cap is 30%. Can't find one? Use a damn GCP on your gem. You really want to waste 6-7 passiv points instead of some GCPs?

@Exo666
That's one of the worst builds i've ever seen. How are you gonna survive chaos damage? No CI, but Vaal Pact and Zealoths Oath (btw where is the regeneration coming from?): You have no way to regenerate your HP. That build is suicidal.

"

Bada_Bing wrote:

Vaal Pact for spellcaster = worst idea ever.
Reason:
20% of 5,9k ES = 1180 leech/sec
To reach that with the 6% on your LL gem you need to do 1180*100/6 = 19657 dps.
Won't happen that often. Besides, the excess leech is NOT wasted, just postponed (works like using a life flask).
If you really don't want to hit the cap, buy a quality life leech. It ups the cap. With 10% qual on your gem the cap is 30%. Can't find one? Use a damn GCP on your gem. You really want to waste 6-7 passiv points instead of some GCPs?

Thats not true!

1. with a quality lifeleech reflect isnt as dangerous as before, but it doesnt really help you a lot with reflect (instead of havin a cap at 20% of life per second you now have 24% of life per second)
-> So if you use an attack/spell with high phys or ele dmg PER HIT a qual lifeleech wont be enough to solve the reflect problem (while with a low dmg, high speed spell like FP, a qual lifeleech gem is enough in most cases)
e.g.:
- My EK-build has rather high phys dmg per hit (about 2.5k+ I think) so I have to be really carefully fighting phys reflect mobs even with my 20% lifeleech gem. A normal non-crit shot in a huge group with reflect can (almost) kill me.
- My EK-build also has some ele dmg (about 1.5k+ per hit I think), but but my 20% lifeleech is enough to cover that vs. ele reflect mobs. However last days I killed myself on a ele reflect mob in a rele reflect map with ele weakness.
=> With vaal pact I would not die to reflect at all


2. Reaching the 20% leech cap is very easy. With my EK-build I am permanently at the cap while I am casting. You dont only leech 6% of your dmg. You leech 6% of your dmg for each monster you hit.
-> So if I hit 4 monsters I already reach the cap of a 20% qual gem (and I dont fight groups < 4 monster at all)


=> I dont want to loose my 100+ life regen per sec and the ability to use health potions and all my EB-mana with my EK build, but I definately would have taken vaal pact with EK if I went for ES instead of life! (my build is only 3-4 points away anyway...)
Imho Vaal pact almost is a must have for an ES-EK build.

In general Vaal Pact works better with ES builds. You simply cannot do anything wrong if you take VP as ES build - it doesnt have any negative effects.
With life builds, some regen and health flasks are much better in most cases:
Vaal Pact is only good if either your life is too high to refill with flasks (mostly builds with Kaom's Heart) or your phys dmg per hit (seldom ele dmg) is so high that you'll kill you very easy on reflect mobs (slow, high dmg 2H maces/staffs)

When do you use Vaal Pact?
You take it as a melee char with (relatively low) life and high leech. As a melee you have to make sure that amount leeched > damage taken, because you can't stay away from the mobs like a spellcaster can. With a leech rate in the two digits, the 20% cap is a serious penalty. For a double claw shadow for example VP makes sense.
When do you not take Vaal Pact?
You don't take it to cover up sloppy gameplay. I play an EK witch myself. Instead of throwing away 7 passiv points you throw beartraps at reflect mobs. Watch for the aura. Don't just spam EK.
You make it sound like there is no opportunity cost by taking VP. There is. Given the tree of Adultery, taking VP means you have to take away 7 points somewhere else. For example the Nullification or the Body&Soul circle. You really insist that lifting the cap because one might overlook a reflect mob is worth sacrificing permanently 50%-60% increased ES and 10 ele resist?

Even on HC it makes no sense to take VP: Taking more life passivs instead of crit passivs is the better strategy to protect from reflect than going for VP.

"

Bada_Bing wrote:

When do you use Vaal Pact?
You take it as a melee char with (relatively low) life and high leech.

I dont agree. You take it as melee with a huge lifepool e.g. with Kaom's because leech is the only thing that will heal you up fast.
With a lower life pool you dont need vaal pact because flasks + normal leech is much better.

You also take it for CI melee builds (at least for phys dmg based - like CI Sweep Marauder)

"

Bada_Bing wrote:

You make it sound like there is no opportunity cost by taking VP. There is. Given the tree of Adultery, taking VP means you have to take away 7 points somewhere else.

Well I meant the skill alone has no disadvantage as ES user. If you have to spend 7+ points it isnt an easy choice.

My EK-build is only 3 points away from VP (so 4 points total).
The build is life based atm and I dont want to loose my 100+ life regen and my flasks for VP.

But I could go CI with...:

- both body and soul circles
- all CI ES passives
- Witch ES passives
- Ghost reaver
- Inner force
- Iron Reflexes
- Vaal Pact

...without changing anything else then my life nodes and regen nodes and still doing 6k DPS (7+ with good endgame gear I think) and having 160++ IIR 80++ IIQ... (without andvarius - this would be possible too for a big IIR boost and a small DPS and life loss)


http://www.pathofexile.com/passive-skill-tree/AAAAAgMAAuMD2welDH0OrRB_EQ8RLRUgFecW8xjbGjgc3B0UJjwppSpNLJws6S0fLUcvnTrYQ5xD0kSrSbJN2E99UEJVrlcrW69mnm0Zb55wfXOzdPF8g3_GgFaBb4IQgh6MNox2jr6PRo-mkFWTJ548nrmio6cIp4SplbQMuJPAGsHzxp7N-tVP2wvdDd5337DsOPBr8Xb60sHFLL-GrhXX14ZWYzvh4venK3FNms9DY7cxWPWdxD8nbqqukyo47BiP-tvnRwZfasNt

My current (life) Build:
http://www.pathofexile.com/passive-skill-tree/AAAAAgMAAnEC4wPbBLMFLQelDH0OrRB_EQ8RLRRNFSAV5xbzGNsaOBzcHRQhYCQ8JjwmlSepKaUqTSycLOktHy1HL5026TrYQKBDnEPSRKtJUUmySn1N2E99UEJVS1WuVcZXK1ptW69mnmegbRlte2-ecH1zs3TxfIN_xoBWgW-CEIIeh3aMNox2jr6PRo-mkFWTJ548nrmiAKKjpwinXKeEqZW0DLiTwBrB88aezfrPZdDQ1U_bC90N3nffsONq7Djwa_F2-tL8xQ==


edit:

sry forgot to remove the EB node and the chaos resist node. Spend these 3 points on mana passives. (and I forgot to mention that you will need mana leech insead of IIR or IIQ gem linked to the EK and a 5L or better of course)

I don't care what melee build is better off with VP. The question was " i could ditch 7 crit nodes for the Vaal Pact, or would getting that 10% shock chance node and the reduced mana nodes + Celestial Walker in the templar tree?".
Answer: Don't get VP. Too high opportunity costs for a marginal benefit (immediate leech) that you don't need, when playing your spellcaster properly. (BTW when you need it most, namely in bossfights, VP is of NO use, because your leech vs 1 opponent is neglectable)
And not only in that case, i stand to the point that for ANY spellcaster VP is no-go area.

If VP is so good, why didn't you take it? Instead you come up with a theoretical CI EK build that is borderline unplayable because of mana issues, or playable only by dropping some auras. Anyway the VP variant is far worse then your original build.
Cold crit witch: Again, there is NO core build, where you don't have to waste min. 7 passiv points, that you will miss somewhere else. Same for fire witch or lightning witch. Do summoners need VP? No. To make an argument you have to come up with a WORKING passiv tree on any of these witch builds, that doesn't have huge opportunity costs.

"

Bada_Bing wrote:

I don't care what melee build is better off with VP. The question was " i could ditch 7 crit nodes for the Vaal Pact, or would getting that 10% shock chance node and the reduced mana nodes + Celestial Walker in the templar tree?".

yeah and the answer is: if you need more leech e.g. because of reflect then VP if not dmg nodes of course...
If you use FP I am sure you wont need it.

"

Bada_Bing wrote:

If VP is so good, why didn't you take it?

I explained it twice. Again - You cannot use it with a low 4k life pool and 6% leech because it has too many drawbacks with life and you cannot cover the big variance with such a small life pool.

I dont go CI as EK-caster because I dont think CI is worth it (low armour vs. bigger "lifepool").
I might use ES with shavronne to get the low life bonus with the posted build and I am pretty sure it will work with all my current auras (clarity, discipline grace and hatred).
It is just a question of gear and mana-leech gem instead of IIR and maybe 4-5 more lvls...
(and if I dont go VP than at least Zealots Oath for additional RF bonus)

Just pumped ~ 20 exalts into my current gear couple of weeks ago, so I will play it a bit before I reskill and buy a expensive shavronne + ES gear... (cant really afford it anyway atm)

but I also have a low life fireball build with Kaom's Heart in mind...

@Bada_Bing
Wow brilliant reply. Never saw anyone who got my char idea and use to find out that my skill tree is so bad whitout having any idea about what I'im going to do.

For your answer: My build will be a low-life build with shavronne's wrapping. I'll use RF and Pain Attunement which will give me more around 130% MORE spell damages.

Here a thread if you want to get the idea of it which the guys have 60K dps with FP.
http://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/314832

All I did is optimize it to get Vaal Pact, because you know with 60K you can one shot in less than one sec if your not ready to use your max resist pot. By using Vall Pact too, in this case it permit me to do more much dps because this guys restrict the dps of his build because of reflect mob. So I came to a idea that come from Kripparian(the sick streamer that won the race season 1). Which was to add lightning damage to shock stack a lot with FP and GMP. He left the idea behind because like the other guys, he will kill himself on reflect mob.

I thought, even if you trash talk like a idiot, that maybe you could give a good feedback if I missed something but no. Instead you gave us the ''only'' way Vaal Pact could be good to use and thats totally retarded. Vaal Pact instantly heal you and it's much more worth than anything with high dps and high ES. It's mostly absurd to use it when you use life because you won't be able to use instant life pot and high regen which is, in most case, stupid. While low-life and CI builds can't use instant pot and high regen, Vaal Pact is a must.

Dear Exo666,
please enlighten this poor retard. You picked this overpowered winning combo Zealoths Oath + Ghost Reaver + Vaals Pact while ignoring CI so you can come up with this witty low life build. It kind of reminds me of the Kantian bird, that once discovered that it flies better when having less air to fight and than deduced that the best way to fly would be without air, but i could be wrong (i confess being the village idiot after all). So please shed some of your wisdom on what you do once a bramble cobra has picked off half of your precious low life pool and a second one threatens to pick off the rest. I know you have some secret way to avoid death, but share it! Enlighten the dumb masses. Even better make a video. Post it on Youtube titled "My short adventures at Rivers Crossing". I will definitely watch it.
Your humble servant and pupil