Xmas Gift: Melee Manifesto

So yesterday, I was at a christmas party and while avoiding human interaction as much as possible, i couldn't help but think: "none of these people know about poe spells's weapon equivalent".

What you don't know what I mean by spell's weapon equivalent, allow me to explain.
Melee damage is based on what weapon you have equipped, so you want more damage you get a higher pdps or epds weapon, spells on the other hand get most of their damage from skills levels, but if they were also weapon dependent and compared to similar damage effectiveness skills what would those weapon look like:

Ex. 1 sunder vs frostbolt
relevant stats: Sunder lvl 20:damage effectiveness 325% /attack speed modifier(asm) 0.75
Frostbolt:damage effectiveness 360% /cast time (cs) 0.75s

So we can from already calculate how many attacks per second (aps) your weapon needs to equal a cast time of 0.75s
cs=1/(aps*asm) < = > aps=(1/cs)/asm < = > aps =(1/0.75)/0.75=1.777..

Despot axe (fastest two handed axe) with max t1 increase attack speed rolls is 1.78 aps

Okay you need a fast axe to equal the cast time of a spell, how about damage

Frostbolt lv 20: min dam:1594\ max dam:2392 = avg dam:1993
Lv 24 avg dam: 3174
Lv 27 avg dam:3992.5

Why i chose this gem levels, because they are the most simple common gem levels breakpoints in terms of gear; lv 20 is self evident, gem at highest level, lv 24 corrupted gem to 21 and +1 gem level from main hand, offhand and amulet, 27 is +2 gem levels from main hand, offhand and amulet.

To my knowledge the damage displayed in gem is already multiplied by damage effectiveness of the gem (insert string of servitude joke here), so avg damage/effectivenss results in true value of damage added by gem
Lv 20: 553.61 / lv 24: 881.67 / lv 27: 1109.03

Divide these values by it cast time (0.75s) and you have weapon equivalent dps of the spell

Lv 20: 738.15 / lv 24: 1175.56 / lv 27: 1478.70

Grabbing our t1 speed axe from before and you need to add
Lv 20 - t3 phys % and t2 phys add for a pdps 720

Stop throwing pitchforks i know frostbolt is cold damage so it can also be achieved instead by adding
Lv 20 - t1 cold add and t4 phys add for 720 dps =300pdps + 420 edps

Lv24 - t1 phys% \ t1 phys add \ t1 phys hybrid with acc (or warlord with speed) + t1 phys warlord suffix for pdps 1115 (just to keep count this are 5 t1 mods, what you only count four, remember the axe already had t1 attack speed)

Or lv 24 t1 cold add\ t1 cold hybrid redeemer/ t1 phys% for dps 1110 =557 pdps+ 553edps

And for lvl 27 not even attempted to craft such a weapon on a crafting simulator, I'll talk more about it at the end.

Ok you are not convinced of the conclusion that your brain is trying to scream at you, i must be playing shenanigans comparing cold skill with a physical one, let do it again.

Ex. 2 smite vs purifying flame
relevant stats: Smite lvl 20:damage effectiveness 273% /attack speed modifier(asm) 0.85
Purifying flame:damage effectiveness 300% /cast time (cs) 0.70s

aps=(1/0.70)/0.85=1.68

See you no longer need a t1 speed despot axe, you can now use t4 despot or t2 ezomyte axe, for variety lets chose ezomyte axe this time

Let’s see those weapon equivalent dps:
Lv 20: 735.56 / lv 24: 1166.67 / lv 27: 1640

Oh no, those numbers are oddly similar to the last ones you would need to put back t1 speed on a despot axe to even be near the lv 24 one.

Lv 20 - t2 attack speed\ t1 phys % and t3 phys add for a pdps 739
Lv24 - t1 attack speed \t1 phys% \ t1 phys add \ t1 phys hybrid with acc (or warlord with speed) + t1 phys warlord suffix for pdps 1107
Lv 27 - forget it man

Sure you can add another 100 lightning damage to smite from its aura, but “What's the point?” (sirus is that you)

No, I refuse to believe, you must be pulling a fast one with conversion, that's it, give me a pure physical spell skill.

Ex3.reave vs ethereal knives
relevant stats: reave lvl 20:damage effectiveness 250% /attack speed modifier(asm) 1
ethereal knives :damage effectiveness 220% /cast time (cs) 0.60s

aps=(1/0.60)/1=1.67

Sensible aps and reave can’t use two handers so let’s use a claw and our options are al;l from the fastest imperial claw with t8 speed (1.68 aps) to slowest vaal claw with t1 speed (1.65 aps)

Let’s see those weapon equivalent dps:
Lv 20: 718.79 / lv 24: 1113.03 / lv 27: 1535.76

Oh no, the dread is setting in
Lvl 20 vaal claw - t1 attack speed \t1 phys% \ t1 phys add \ t1 phys hybrid with acc for pdps 563 ( the warlord suffix is not available in claws) all the pure physical mods don’t even reach lv 20 damage
Lvl 20 imperial claw - t1 attack speed \t1 phys% \ t1 phys add \ t1 phys hybrid with acc for pdps 614 ( the warlord suffix is not available in claws) all the pure physical mods don’t even reach lv 20 damage.

And now you know why i’ve been using two handed axes, but if your gut instinct is blaming reave sure go ahead remake the calculation with ground slam (they have the same dps effectiveness reave =>250*1 vs 188*0.9*1.49 =252.1) and for that one you can use axes as before.

And now you too are cursed with this knowledge, but in conclusion in a skill gem comparison (aka no support, no skill tree, no auras , no buffs, etc) a lvl 20 spell skill (zero equipment, put tabula rasa) is comparable to a 1 div weapon (yes really, go to trade put weapon requirement to min 700 pdps and non-unique).

A lvl 24 setup that's less than 15 c (2 c per wand for all spell skill and 8 to 10c for an all skill amulet, if you instead went to damage specific ones it should be cheaper) is comparable to 1100 pdps currently with the cheapest weapon at 70 div but the sixth on is 100 div.

And finally the lv 27 setup is about 20 div (5 div per wand+ 10 div for amulet for physical ones your mileage can vary) and for weapon with 1500 dps there is only one on league trade as mirror service and 33 in standard and most of those are because of crucible. And crafting 6 mods in 3 different slots is easier than 5 from the previous one

Note: Cost of corrupting to 21 20% is not accounted for because gems differ in price and it was something that most people could reasonably achieve just mapping (well at least before vendor recipe changed) compared to crafting a 1100 pdps weapon.

So is this the reason why melee sucks? Fuck if i know. This is an ultra simplistic analyse, do support gems benefit more melee than spell casting? Do ancestral totems balance this out? Are aura/curse/marks configured to help melee characters? Does melee have more buffs than spell casting (war cries, phase run, ambush)? Does the skill tree and strength (increased melee physical damage) compensate for all of this? Aren’t melee character supposed to do less damage but be more tanky?( laugh in agony).
Answer these questions for your own PhD in POE, I am content with my master’s degree.

What do I want GGG to do about this, really nothing, the game is hard to balance and this rabbit hole is something I dove into willing just to answer the question what is the weapon equivalent for certain spells.I have no inside knowledge of the working of POE to diagnose an imbalance in the meta.

As the first pre-emptive answer: yes, just because Zana lives rent free in my head it means nothing.

END

Pre-planed FAQ

Q:Sunder can shotgun, you did not account for that.

A:sunder was chosen simply because it is mechanically similar to frostbolt (aka slow moving wave/projectile) and to simplify target is single target , but if you must, change it to ice crash. My method was fully detailed so use it for other skills.

Q. Your crafting sucks! Use tempering orb, x mod or and x crafting tutorial

Yes that is why i used trade site weapon and its cost for comparison

Q. No bow skills?

Shut up, go play your TS deadeye with 7 projectiles (1+ 2 from tree + 2 ascendancy + 2 from bow and quiver) for damage effectiveness approaching 700% with enough pierce proj speed.

Q. You are cherry picking data!

A. Yes and no, did I test all skills to verify my hypothesis? No. Did I not show all skills I tested because any of them contradicted the numbers above? Also no, i only tested the 3 cases and they agree with each other go waste your time and do it yourself.

Q. Shut up and go play affliction, the league is great, the endgame is in the best state since records were started.

A. I intend to, this post's only purpose is to distract you specifically so that I and everyone else can get ahead of you.

KMQ's alter ego?

Hope you had a wonderful holiday, OP. It's always interesting for me to come across such posts and I commend you for trying but there are some flaws in your argument:

1) Melee means you need to be in the thick of the action (which means they can hit you too) while as a spell caster, I could be way over THERE in safety blowing up a pack before they can react. This will always be the case for melee vs. range so melee cannot simply be "the same damage as" to be balanced. It needs to be a lot more to make up for this.

2) You compared damage vs. 0.75 cast time using a T1 attack speed despot axe but you forget that spells can have an equivalent mod on spellcaster weapons. Even worse for you, there is no penalty for me to have say 2 wands, each with 32% increased cast speed because unlike your 2H axe, I don't give up some massive base damage by not doing a 2H weapon.

3) No damage penalty for going 2 weapons also means I have 2 sets of crit chance for spells, 2 sets of crit multi (or double damage if you prefer), and 2 sets of %increased spell damage. Heck, I even get a free 15% block chance thrown in that you don't get.

4) The endgame standard you should always compare to for spells is L30, not 20, 24, or 27. That's because every high investment endgame spell build aims for L30.