Violent Retaliation - Lucky Bleeds?

It's hard to find a definitive source for this behaviour, so I'm hoping for some clarification. Bleed characters using Volatility Support and Ryslatha's Coil can have a damage range of 20x, and channeling a snipe to hit such a low roll... unfortunate! And so...

Violent Retaliation states "Attack Damage is Lucky ..."

The PoeWiki/Luck page sources link to this reddit post about Supercharge, which quotes an unsourced MarkGGG statement that states that, as "non-critical strikes" refers to hits, this Lucky does not scale damaging ailments.

Further down, a user mentions the ailment calculation changes from 3.0.0 which changed damaging ailments to be an entirely separate calculation that only used the "base and added damage of the skill ... giving skills that deal fire damage a minimum and maximum Ignite Damage per Second value that is rolled on Ignites ...".

So it looks like "Attack Damage is Lucky ..." should not impact bleeds, as Attack Damage refers to hits, and not the above "Bleed Damage Per Second" roll.

My question is due to the wording of both Ryslatha's Coil and Volatility support, which are understood to impact ailment damage even though they both refer to "Attack Damage". In that case, "Minimum/Maximum Attack Damage" appears equivalent to something like "Minimum/Maximum Damage Rolls with Attacks".

If so then it appears possible that Violent Retaliation similarly refers to Attack Damage as "Damage Rolls with Attacks", and thus might impact the bleed roll - especially as it has no similar "non-critical strikes" constraint like Supercharge does.

In other words...
1) Does Ryslatha's Coil and Volatility work with damaging ailments?
2) Does Violent Retaliation's "Attack Damage is Lucky ..." work with damaging ailments?
3) Would a generic "# Damage is Lucky" with no further constraint work with a respective ailment? (i.e. "Fire Damage is Lucky" and Ignite)

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1) Does Ryslatha's Coil and Volatility work with damaging ailments?

Yes, many tests including very accurate ones confirm this. From the wording it shouldn't, and it's not clear if this is a longstanding bug or something else.

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2) Does Violent Retaliation's "Attack Damage is Lucky ..." work with damaging ailments?

No, damage rolls happen after damage modifiers are applied. And damage modifiers apply separately to hits and ailments.

My understanding of how it currently works: there is a base damage range (base + added damage) which is apparently what Ryslatha's modify, and that base damage range devides to attack damage range and ailment damage range, then appropriate modifiers apply to them, and then damage rolling happens (twice if lucky) just before enemy's mitigations stage starts.

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3) Would a generic "# Damage is Lucky" with no further constraint work with a respective ailment? (i.e. "Fire Damage is Lucky" and Ignite)

I don't thing such wording makes much sense. How would you make damage from Scorching Ray lucky for example? The damage must have a range to begin with, so hits and ailments. And so far all lucky damage stats mention only hits (one way or another), while I don't see why a hypothetical "Bleeding Damage is Lucky" cannot exist.

One thing I considered but never built out (didn't feel motivated) was Dance of Death w/ Rupture Bleed. That would technically put forth the situation where the bleed could potentially be lucky if it actually worked.

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3) Would a generic "# Damage is Lucky" with no further constraint work with a respective ailment? (i.e. "Fire Damage is Lucky" and Ignite)

... How would you make damage from Scorching Ray lucky for example? The damage must have a range to begin with, so hits and ailments ... while I don't see why a hypothetical "Bleeding Damage is Lucky" cannot exist.

Good point, I suppose it could be a situation where the concept Lucky would be understood to refer to damage rolls as Double Damage refers to hits, or perhaps the cleaner approach would be to explicitly word any given Lucky as something like "# Damage rolls with # are Lucky" instead (either "Lightning Damage Rolls with Non-Critical Strikes are Lucky" or "Non-Critical Lightning Damage Rolls are Lucky", for example). And yeah, there doesn't seem to be anything that would prevent a "Bleeding Damage is Lucky" from existing, at least.

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1) Does Ryslatha's Coil and Volatility work with damaging ailments?

... From the wording it shouldn't, and it's not clear if this is a longstanding bug or something else.

I would've said that it's just a result of Ryslatha's being pre-3.0.0 and that it should probably get a slight description tweak, but with Volatility now in the game it appears as if the proper reference to that "Base + Added" is - at least for Minimum/Maximum - "Attack Damage", which is why I consider "Attack Damage is Lucky" to potentially work for damaging ailments. However...

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Damage rolls happen after damage modifiers are applied. And damage modifiers apply separately to hits and ailments.

Is there anything definitive for the Damage rolls happening afterwards? If so then I'd probably be convinced that "Attack Damage is Lucky" would inherently be limited to... "Attack Damage" as it probably is, but if the damage rolls happen at the start of the calculations pre-modifiers - which would make more sense to my brain, at least - then the Lucky could instead be rolling the same "Attack Damage" that Ryslatha's and Volatility reference, thus scaling any resulting damaging ailments?


Either way I'd imagine it'd be handy to update Ryslatha's/Volatility to a more explicit post-3.0.0 wording, if nothing else.