Is it just me or is sadism support....just a bit broken on arrival?

***Ed: Ran the math: Deal Damage Faster also has an effect on duration, so the 80% faster mod means that the initial 10 second ignite would be reduced to 10 x .56 or 5.6 seconds. Now you apply the less duration to that so it becomes 5.6 x .21 for a total of 1.18 seconds. Since DPS stays the same, the new total damage of the ignite is based linearly with the duration. The NEW damage of the ignite is now 5.6 / 1.18 or about 4.75x LESS damage per ignite, BUT the ability to apply 8ish ignites in the same time initial 10 second period. So really, it ends up being less than 2x multiplier. I guess thats okay

TLDR: My initial assumption was wrong. The gem basically gives you about a 80% more multiplier at the high end, but only with fast applications of DoTs. That's if my math is correct.

Equation taken from Goddess Scorned (50% faster) wiki page: Expressed arithmetically, fire damage over time from ignites is multiplied by ( 100 + 50 ) / 100, while ignite duration is multiplied by 100 / ( 100 + 50 ). Same overall damage, 33% less duration

Numbers:
Duration multiplier for 80% faster = 100 / (100 + 80) = .56
Less Duration Multiplier from Gem = 1 - .79 = .21

****For those interested in checking the math: Make sure you note the difference between "DPS" and "TOTAL Damage".




Initial thinking (wrong)

80% faster ailment
79% reduced duration

Thrown onto a bleed or an ignite.

Net 20% loss of initial dps BUT now can be reapplied almost 5x as fast. Thats like a 400+% multiplier in a single support gem.

Am I wrong here?

Ex:
1) Initial DoT ignite of 500k over 10 seconds. Cannot stack. Hits once every 10 seconds

2) Sadism makes it deal 80% more damage, but with 80% less time which sort of evens out to the same amount of base damage, or I guess 20% less, over the new duration of 2.1 seconds.

3) Now, in the same span of 10 seconds, you can apply nearly 5 ignites that are as powerful as that initial ignite was for almost 4x net damage increase.


Pair that with the new ignite support that ALSO has a 400% multiplier and you get a whopping 1600% multiplier for ignites against single targets that is easily obtainable on a fast attack build...that is a little crazy. All with just 2 support gems.

Feels like you're over thinking it.

If the duration is irrelevant because you can constantly keep the bleed/ignite up, the damage is done 1.8x faster, meaning a bleed that deals 100 dps, if it were 100% faster, it would be 200 dps, 80% faster, 180dps.

"

jsuslak313 wrote:

The duration BECOMES irrelevant once you achieve the right speed.

Poteto, potato.

^It's not as simple as "Duration is irrelevant", when you approach it from a bottom-up build perspective. The duration BECOMES irrelevant once you achieve the right speed.

When you are working with a non-stacking ailment build, you aren't usually focused on speed. So you need to know what speed you need to hit to maximize the output.


Your example with Puncture doesn't factor in the 4.75x dps loss from the 79% less duration. You need to make up for that by attacking 4.75x faster (provided you have perfectly balanced your speed to ailment output initially). That's a LOT more attack speed. It's not a given that bleed/ignite builds will just have that already.

Here's an example using your puncture:
The 80% faster ailment means that your bleed duration is 4.8 seconds for maximum damage. The 79% less duration means that your bleed effective duration becomes .94 seconds.

To get to the same dps as your initial 80% faster bleed, you need to apply bleeds every .94 seconds or FASTER. Anything above that and you miss a bleed proc and cut your damage by a lot.

FYI: Puncture Base duration is 8 seconds. Bleed is 5 seconds. Proceed.

"

Z3RoNightMare wrote:

Poteto, potato.

Except....not really. It functions the same as a trigger build. You need to know the correct attack speed for it to function the way you want it function. It's easier than a trigger build to figure out, since there aren't cutoff points, but it still matters.

Especially if you are working with slam builds or other naturally "slow" skills to apply the initial bleed or ignite.




Ah sorry, didn't notice the 8 seconds. Makes it easier to achieve the right attack speed, but doesn't make it any less ignorable in build crafting. I updated the example.


I'm not really disagreeing with you...in the end, the top damage is just an 80% more multiplier. But for theory crafters, the minimum speed to upkeep that 80% is important.

Im not quite sure why you are calculating with a 10s ignite. The base duarion is 4s.

Anyways, the situation you are describing is the exact same as any igntite build using an Replica Emberwake is facing (90% less ignite duration plus 40% faster ignites on average).

On paper thats fine and doesnt have any impact whatsoever on killing trash mobs but its detrimental when fighting bosses, if you dont fix Emberwake´s downside.
Because now you have to re-apply the ignite constantly in very short order, which is the exact opposite of what you want as an ignite build OR you invest into ignite/ailment/skill-effect duration on tree/gear/gems (unbound) to increase the duation again.


Sadism can be a powerful support, just as Replica Emberwake can be powerful, but you cant just slap it on and expect it to work.
You will have to build around this thing, otherwise its almost purely downside.

^I just chose an arbitrary easy number to work with. It doesn't totally matter what the initial duration is in the equation example: it still illustrates that attacks per second becomes much more important. For building purposes, of course you need to work with the ACTUAL numbers you have, along with any other "less duration" multipliers you likely have.

That is exactly the point I was trying to make. Its not as simple as an "80% more multiplier". You need to be able to tackle the downside of having to attack a LOT faster than the typical single ailment build attacks. But if you DO build a fast igniting character, this support is HUGE and also synergizes with the other HUGE ignite support.

The "old" way of applying powerful ignites infrequently might be a thing of the past, or otherwise strictly weaker than a Sadism/new ignite gem-buffed speed igniter. A LOT weaker. And you really don't need to increase the duration at all if you are attacking fast enough to begin with.

"

jsuslak313 wrote:

That is exactly the point I was trying to make. Its not as simple as an "80% more multiplier". You need to be able to tackle the downside of having to attack a LOT faster than the typical single ailment build attacks.

Essentially this is ruling out slams, which is a shame because those could have used some love and slams do fit into the traditional ignite playstyle (hit once, hit hard) perfectly.

^Precisely! That was sort of my point to Z3ro earlier. You CANT simply say the duration is irrelevant from the start because, if you DONT think about duration then you might be gimping your entire build.

In a fully fleshed out speed build, the equation simplifies to 80% more damage: that is undeniably true. But before that build is fleshed out, it is NOT an 80% more multiplier, it is a massive massive nerf.


You basically can't use this support effectively for normal ignites and bleeds until MUCH later in the game, as you stack some speed stats to go along with it. For ignites (4s), you need an attack speed of .47 (2.13 aps) or faster, with a 100% chance to ignite.

A literal lvl1 naked Marauder with Exquisite Blade T3 AS and Blood Rage with 3 frenzy charges has 1.52 aps, which is enough to cap bleed hits (if you always bleed, bleed is 5 seconds, 1/4 = 1.25 seconds just to prove a point) while attacking, which is the point of the gem if you try to use it. Practically the same with Ranger and Spine Bow.

So yes, duration is irrelevant (for bleeds, while attacking).