Players cannot regenerate life, mana or energy shield

Those who complain about the current map mod situation: how would you make it better? The point of the map mods is to make the map harder to run, for correspondingly higher rewards. How else would you make maps harder without special modifiers, just multiply monster damage and defense? That's super boring.

Sure, you can make the mods 90% instead of 100% in some instances, but as you can see above even the 100% mods can be overcome by numerous solutions. This is true of ALL map mods except a rare few that brick a tiny number of builds with no exception. But...you can just reroll in that instance.

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jsuslak313 wrote:

Those who complain about the current map mod situation: how would you make it better? The point of the map mods is to make the map harder to run, for correspondingly higher rewards. How else would you make maps harder without special modifiers, just multiply monster damage and defense? That's super boring.

Sure, you can make the mods 90% instead of 100% in some instances, but as you can see above even the 100% mods can be overcome by numerous solutions. This is true of ALL map mods except a rare few that brick a tiny number of builds with no exception. But...you can just reroll in that instance.

The map mod system could be razed and redesigned from ground up, to make it better and more tailored towards everyone. My off the top of my head proposition would be:

-Maps get innate difficulty increase with tier. This applies to ALL MAPS in these tiers
T1-3 maps have no difficulty mods
T4+ maps have extra damage and HP scaling
T7+ maps have increased critical strike chance and bonus crit multiplier
T10+ maps have bonus armor and evasion rating, and all monsters have innate elemental resistance
T13+ maps have ailment mitigation and increased chance to inflict ailments
T16 maps have further damage and HP scaling

Now the map mods themselves have content modifiers rather than difficulty modifiers.

For example:

Expedition monsters have 100% increased life and damage and +50% to item quantity
Strongboxes always Denotane Nearby Corpses and have +25% to item quantity
Legion encounters have 30% less duration and have 0.3% bonus chance to drop Emblems instead of Splinters
Beyond monsters have 200% increased life and CANNOT spawn a boss
Map contains 40 additional packs of Hunter-influenced monsters (a generic map mod, not just for Conq maps)
Monsters have additional 10% resistance penetration and +60% to item quantity and rarity.

General theme: increase the difficulty and rewards of a SPECIFIC MECHANIC.

No more generic quant / rarity / pack size on map except regular 20% quality. Instead you have specific modifiers that do this. Not even to whole map in general but specific league mechanics. Quant / rarity / packsize could be adjusted on the atlas tree, perhaps even some clusters with notables.

This encourages players to roll their maps with alch and scour or chaos to find mods that synergize with their Atlas tree, rather than just throwing whatever rolls and ignoring all modifiers except those that completely brick their build. Vaal-orbing a map still can produce 8 mods insted of regular 6.

+1 to OP, there shouldn't be any mods that can straight up shut down a build (no regen/leech and reflect) or force them to do something you normally wouldn't do in any other situation in the game.

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Pizzarugi wrote:

+1 to OP, there shouldn't be any mods that can straight up shut down a build (no regen/leech and reflect) or force them to do something you normally wouldn't do in any other situation in the game.

I don't really mind playing differently and doing something I normally don't, but if I'm supposed to adjust my setup that's a tall order.
The way PoE works is by finetuning every slot of your gear and once you get it just so, most of it isn't really up for negotiations anymore. Flasks are probably the most flexible, but you can only do so much with them, maybe you'd have a secondary set for farming a boss, lab or something if you're focusing on it, but I'm not touching my gear to run one map.

Well, assuming that's the intention, if it it's mission failed. But if the whole thing is supposed to be nothing more than a chaos sink because too many of them drop and being able to brick a map by corrupting is supposed to be an incentive for trading away maps you can't handle, then ok, the system is doing its job and I can accept that.

@esubane: i like the idea of map mods affecting certain mechanics. The rest of what you wrote is how the game already operates. Monster damage/life/crit chance etc already scales with tier and ilvl.

I just don't agree that rare map modifiers is where those types of modifiers should go. With the introduction of the atlas passive tree, THAT is where global modifiers to difficulty and loot of various league mechanics should go. We also have scarabs that change the behavior of specific league mechanics. Those can be reworked to include a difficulty/loot modifier on top of their existing mods. We don't need a THIRD iteration of the same modifiers.

Making a MAP harder by alching should affect everything within that map. It is a challenge choice made by the player and shouldn't be treated as a generic buff to whatever the player chooses to farm. That simply isn't the point. Also, it should NOT just be a generic damage/hp boost. I think rolling a rare map and having to deal with the mods you might not USUALLY encounter is a huge PLUS to the game. We do NOT need more generic damage/hp mods as that would get exceedingly boring (a la D3)

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jsuslak313 wrote:

How else would you make maps harder without special modifiers, just multiply monster damage and defense? That's super boring.

but its already this, the entire map mod system in terms of gameplay is already just multiply monster damage and defence.


in ruthless they did what it actually takes to make rare items in the game really exciting as a drop, and to do that they had to destroy the map rolling system because a side effect of the map rolling system is that you have to have all these orbs to roll rare items constantly which just destroys any attempt to make you care about a rare item dropping from a monster, because you could force spawn 100 rares any time you want. ggg has this fantasy about rare maps being a way to get items, you sacrifice crafting materials to gamble for the chance of getting more items from your map... but that system in itself requires us to have enough crafting materials constantly on hand that it invalidates a desire to find those items. its self defeating.

thats downside 1, downside 2 is that you sit there at your stash rolling maps instead of playing the game. it hurts my eyes and my brain sitting there rolling all these maps and vetting them for mods that are impossible for my current build to play. it breaks down the flow of gameplay, i want to play the game, i dont want to sit at my stash clicking orbs on maps and trying to read endless lines of text. an arpg is a grind game, you get in a grind mindset, you got your audio book on or your netflix or whatever and you grind the content, its like playing a game like tetris or r-type or geometry wars where its kind of mindless gameplay. thats what an arpg gameplay is for the most, theres specific high level mechanical bosses that you go into with your serious hat on and youre gonna have to deal with this bitch in a serious fashion, but grinding maps is mindless 'in the zone' autopilot gameplay that occasionally gets spicy and it shocks you out of that mindstate.

the whole thing of rolling maps just breaks down that game flow and forces you into reading all this bullshit, its like quest dialogue that everyone skips through, except you are forced to engage with it and cant just skip, stopping the game and asking you to read a load of unnecessary text is just awful.


what happens then is peoples minds are so appalled by the dire tedium of rolling maps, the wanton crosseyed dissociative dyslexia it induces in peoples brain trying cope with how excruciatingly dull it is to have rolled a map for every 3 minutes of gameplay youve experienced for the 15,000 hours of playing path of exile youve gone through in the last decade that they eventually miss a map that says reflect ele on it and they were on an ele build and they forgot because theyve been grinding for 10 hours straight in an autopilot mindless gameplay game that encourages you into a subconscious reactive reflex gameplay zone and then the end result is a zizaran or nugi gameplay vid on youtube where they didnt see the map was relfect and they instantly die as soon as they walk in on a character they spent 60 hours developing, and the game says...


"hahaha!!! HSAAAAAAHA!!!! GOTCHA!!!!! hahaha oh thats so funny you forgot to check for the thing after playing 1,742,018 maps and instantly died hahaha, oh its such a clever game oh what fun this is HAAAA!!!!!!"


yeah funny joke... i get it.

ok? its been 10 years, have we got over this hilarious little troll feature? can we grow up and have a better game now?





and what we get for all this crap, in actual gameplay terms, is...

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just multiply monster damage and defense... super boring.

because

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jsuslak313 wrote:

as you can see above even the 100% mods can be overcome by numerous solutions.

no one is doing this unless theyre essentially bad at making game decisions. oh if i swapped this pantheon to that and i hunt out this ring and make this swap and use this jewel them im immune to this sort of reflect and i can play this map i just rol..... stop, just stop. a chaos orb click, 1 second, new rolls with no reflect, now play that map. the amount of time it takes to think about this stuff and swap things you would be better off clicking the map once, the mod disappears now go in and you will have found at least a chaos orb back in mats from killing monsters and you will have xp for your time, and fun, because you are playing the game you booted your pc to play.

if you are killing monsters, or crafting items, or making trades then you are gaining as a player. gaining items, currency, xp, something, you are gaining in a game that resolves around the desire to gain these things. if you are sitting at your stash doing gear swaps you are wasting your time and you are bad at the game. thats not my opinion, thats not me telling you that you are bad, that is the game telling you that you are making bad gameplay choices because its just a FACT that you are losing out on all the games measures of how effective your time spent in the game is.






its just a bad system. it sounds good in theory, weve played with it for 10 years and its actually just bad, its monsters do a bit more damage and have a bit more life and we pay for having that boring simple gameplay feature through the nose because its dressed up as this huge itemised mod crafting polava that is all busy work and bloat with 0 actual positive gameplay payoff over having a boring +damage +life multiplier. you could replace the whole system with just scaling monster life and damage more with levels and the gameplay of poe would be exactly the same for anyone not essentially playing the game wrong by theorycrafting a way to play an ele reflect map on their ele build that isnt inherently reflect immune without them having to changing anything.

^ive heard all those complaints....many many many times. But I have yet to see a better system. There is nothing in your post except complaints which are pretty unhelpful. I've experienced everything you describe, but I STILL think it is the right system to have simply because I can't think of a better one and I have never encountered anyone that actually offered a better solution.

It is NOT just an increase in damage/hp. No regen is a mechanical shift, no leech, reflect, curses, etc. These are all MECHANICAL changes that require either prior planning or preparation before mapping. Sure, GGG could change all rare map mods to: Monsters deal x% extra damage as element y, monsters deal x% extra damage, monsters have x% extra health. But those are just dumb and lazy.

Yes, we DO have SOME modifiers that directly multiply monster damage: increased attack speed, crit chance/multi, but the vast majority of rare map mods are NOT just alternate forms of monster damage buffs. They add difficulty in the form of the player having to THINK about overcoming them. Sure you can reroll over them as much as you want, but that costs time and currency.

I very much disagree that players are NOT adjusting themselves to tackle certain map mods. It is common practice to swap flasks, or create a passive tree that takes into account curses or other downsides found in map mods. If you AREN'T doing that, than you are shooting yourself in the foot and causing even more time rolling maps in your hideout that you could otherwise just slap on a specific flask and run all those maps you are skipping. That is YOUR choice, and it isn't the most efficient choice, except if you have oodles and oodles of currency to burn.

But here's the rub and I think what you are trying to say (without saying it): you dislike the ENTIRE map system. Not the rerolling, not the mods, but the mapping as a whole. This is an entirely separate argument, and frankly a bigger argument than what is being brought up in this thread.

In the CURRENT map system, we have white maps with zero additional mods. Players can CHOOSE to just run white maps. League mechanics can still be run through the atlas tree, scarabs, sextants, and kirac mods. There is no system forcing you to run content that bricks your build. If you choose, you can make them slightly harder and more rewarding by making them magic maps. The player likely will have no issues rolling hundreds or thousands of magic maps without hitting too many brick mods. But then there's alching maps: the way we as players can make maps the HARDEST they can be. Again, this is a CHOICE the player makes. You can do everything you describe wanting to do in the current system by just NOT alching maps. But you are CHOOSING the extra challenge by alching and, yes, you have to read the mods or run into bad situations. This isn't an auto idle game.

Also, to your point about the GAME telling you that you aren't playing correctly: what takes more time? Rerolling each map 100x or rolling 100 maps and swapping 1 flask or 1 pantheon to run all 100 maps? You complain about all the time spent in your hideout rolling maps for the perfect mod combo, yet you fail to see the time you would have saved having a simple switch that allows you to run the 20% of maps you keep having to reroll. YOU are forcing an unnecessary time burden on yourself.

It's not perfect, but I'm anxious to see a better idea.

I still think it's kinda funny LoH can be far more potent than either Leech or Regen but has no map counter. It's just free roam 1.5k /s all day. Anyways, sad fact of the game is that even if you "can" counter a map mechanic. Most don't. This game has become map spam or bust.

While it's a far superior concept to prepare for maps. It's spam or bust.

Incredibly binary map mods just make players waste maps. I'd wager you're simply better off to alch and go late game simply due to the clear speed and boss counters. I don't play this way because I refuse but it's probably more profitable, esp when the league is tied to such a bad system.

Cannot Regen.
Cannot Leech.
90% Avoidance.

They don't make the map harder, they just make the player toss the map.
Double increase Area of Effect. Now that was a hard map I still remember.

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Snorkle_uk wrote:

in ruthless they did what it actually takes to make rare items in the game really exciting as a drop

Taking away almost everything and leaving you with shit rares isn't something I'd consider to be exciting. Making you slog through the entirety of endgame to reach aspirational bosses with shit rares isn't something I'd consider to be exciting.

I mean, if you're a masochist who doesn't think the game is hard enough, I guess punishing yourself is exciting. For me, it's just another thing by GGG making the game unnecessarily more difficult than it already is.

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jsuslak313 wrote:

In the CURRENT map system, we have white maps with zero additional mods. Players can CHOOSE to just run white maps. League mechanics can still be run through the atlas tree, scarabs, sextants, and kirac mods. There is no system forcing you to run content that bricks your build. If you choose, you can make them slightly harder and more rewarding by making them magic maps. The player likely will have no issues rolling hundreds or thousands of magic maps without hitting too many brick mods. But then there's alching maps: the way we as players can make maps the HARDEST they can be. Again, this is a CHOICE the player makes. You can do everything you describe wanting to do in the current system by just NOT alching maps. But you are CHOOSING the extra challenge by alching and, yes, you have to read the mods or run into bad situations. This isn't an auto idle game.

Yea Snorkle is being silly not CHOOSING to run just white maps and instead CHOOSES to alch-and-go and read/scan 20k lines of map mods in a league of which none really mattered except for the one the build can't do so basically the entire read was to make sure that one mod is not somewhere in the list, and sometimes fails after having 10 hours of play to detect them all.

Without this extensive map mod rolling, all we'd have left is just an auto idle game.

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Map mod rolling for 1 or 2 minutes per map run sucks. Very boring clicks.

You know what works? The atlas passives. Put those mods in there and make it about pathing in the right way to suit your build and make every character have their own tree.

Let's say notable X is your desired one, 2 paths lead to it, left one has regen reduction the right one has reflect. Choose the proper path for your build and if your build can't do either work on it until it can. It is worth it because from there on it is permanent and you can just spam maps, no rolling.

And then players can still CHOOSE how hard they want their content but they won't have to go through all the boring map mod rolling.

It's not like the map mods are good contracts anyway. My jugg did tough maps and then died to some weird rare in a really easy one. Go figure.