Pros and Cons of Ruthless (from #1 HC Slayer)
" /popcorn :) ~ Please separate the PoE1 and PoE2 forums.
|
|
" I'm all ears. er.... eyes i guess. | |
" Despite where the game is 'now', would you say these are indicative of Ruthless succeeding at recapturing the feel of 'the early days'? I think GGG specifically said they were aiming for the beta vibe but I might be misremembering. The chat comment resonates with me most strongly, but I suspect that's because of a reduced population+shared interest rather than any sort of genuine return to more congenial interaction in global. Then again, that's what Closed Beta was as well I suppose. No one was in there who hadn't made a conscious choice to be there rather than, say, D3 or elsewhere. Regarding the trading: while it's true that sparsity in-game will increase the value of items considered 'worthless' in a game fiercely addicted to lootsplosions, might this not also be the result of, as above, a much smaller population as well? In other words, do you think trading would feel the same were Ruthless to be wildly popular? In which case, it's less inherent to the scarcity of gear and more a byproduct of that scarcity keeping most players away. " Again, how does this compare to, say, when the game had only 2 or 3 acts repeated 4 times? I might be asking a bit much there -- who remembers that far back!? -- but you more than anyone likely spent a lot of time in Act 2 murderising party members so you may recall the general feel of it. The lack of movement skills is also interesting. This is not really a hearkening back to beta at any significant point: lightning warp and leap slam were two of the earliest skills (both were in the game when I arrived in early 2012). I suppose the delayed teleport held LW back a bit and Leap Slam is so old no patch notes exist introducing it. Not long after I started they added the Shadow and his then signature skill, Whirling Blades. Flicker Strike had yet to be balanced in the slightest -- the frenzy charge limitation was added in July 2012, same update that introduced Vaal Oversoul incidentally. At a broader level, I can't think of a single ARPG that hasn't had some sort of movement skill. Even D1 had blink and teleport. So with that in mind, a complete removal of movement skills doesn't just hearken back to beta, it creates a PoE that never actually existed outside of extremely early internal test builds. Suppose I better ask a question then: does it still feel like an ARPG in the modern sense with movement skills gone or does it, as I suspect, cleave much closer to the turn-based roots of the genre? " Well you still have DPS or you'd really struggle...that niggle aside, I am so pleased to see the word 'engaging' here; you've essentially defined 'tactical ARPG' without saying those exact words. But I think this is the most 'honeymoonish' of all your statements and observations. At one point in ARPG history, we didn't have 'DPS' and battles were intense. Boss battles were almost the same as non-boss battles (a different coloured succubus, hell knight or a slightly more tricked-out archmage) but the few that we remember we really do remember: Fresh meat! Not Even Death Can Save You From Me! Those were the days...but we evolved past them, inevitably. Attacks became faster; skills became larger in scale; gear became more complicated. Boss design had to keep up, as did basic monster design. The innocent birth of powercreep, really. So my question then is: how long could something like Ruthless 'survive' as a throwback in 2022+? Or, maybe easier to answer: how long until you get bored of the primitive? OR do we operate with hindsight and remember what happened when we 'got bored' of Diablo 1 or even Diablo 2 and say not this time, God of Powercreep? :) " This should be GGG's number one incentive to maintain and fine-tune Ruthless and LEARN FROM IT for the game entire. Not everyone wants less gear to drop, or longer fights, or a happier global chat...but I imagine most Exiles want to be rewarded for their own take on skill combinations and tactical usage. I see no point in bothering with PoE without that attitude. It's the game's greatest strength and GGG generally failed to do it justice repeatedly. I think they saw its potential during beta but then they introduced too many skills and supports too quickly. This was a mistake in three ways I can think of: overload of possible OP skill/support combinations made balancing them far too hard; glut of skills/supports reduced players' appreciation for and interest in pushing limited resources; and it made the game's original endgame grail, the 6L, seem mandatory (Tabula Rasa was inevitable). Question: do you think there's some way for GGG to alter the core game to also capture this sense of having to 'combine skills in meaningful ways'? I honestly think if PoE has any one identity left to salvage, that would be it. I'm going to leave the CONS as they are because they're your own answers to other questions I might have asked. One last generic question then: to whom would you recommend Ruthless *assuming little to no PoE experience* and how would you go about it? Feel free to N/A that one if you wouldn't recommend it to non-Exiles at all. GGG themselves said it wouldn't appeal to many Exiles, which by extension should read that it wouldn't appeal to non-Exiles either...but still, I'm curious. If I like a game, it'll either be amazing later or awful forever. There's no in-between. I am Path of Exile's biggest whale. Period. Last edited by Foreverhappychan#4626 on Dec 16, 2022, 11:37:42 PM
|
|
|
Question for those deep in Ruthless - while the lack of support gems / gear / currency is obviously key for ruthless, do you feel the lack of active skill gems is also a positive?
It does seem to guarantuee you can't really even create a Ruthless build because you could very well never see the skill drop. Would it harm ruthless to have access to them? Or is it part of the fun that you dont get to really choose your main skill? |
|
|
Ruthless definitely captures the early days better than anything we've seen since the early days. It's also better in some ways and worse in others.
A smaller population definitely contributes to the value of items, but it's only a part of the equation (and probably the smallest part). Small population + low drop rates + high item demand = items feeling valuable. Hardcore with the natural item sink of people dying is also essential I'd say. The screen clutter is still far worse now than it was back in closed beta. A big part of it in ruthless depends on what skill you choose to use. I'm using heavy strike at the moment, and it's nearly no clutter. But at the very least, monster clutter is greatly reduced as a result of low move-speed, smaller packs and walking instead of teleporting from screen to screen. The no movement skills is interesting. It doesn't bog the game down UNTIL you get so strong that you're just trying to speed clear as fast as you can. When you are weak and your main concern is just surviving, it doesn't feel bad, and it adds a lot more tactical play. The community appears larger than expected, and the reception is vastly more positive than expected. So I think that it could survive If GGG wants it to. Millions of Gen Z-ers are super into idle phone games with reward explosions. If GGG was purely into what's profitable and not what's their niche, I think they would've never attempted Ruthless in the first place and gone after the big crowds crying every patch for more power creep. Yes, there is definitely much GGG could do to the core game to combine skills in meaningful ways. The problem is the community rages every time GGG takes a step in that direction. The # 1 thing GGG needs to do is buff monster life or reduce player DPS. If monsters survive longer, that's what brings in the engaging fights, makes using more than one skill worthwhile etc. GGG appears to have backed down on this somewhat since 3.15's outrage over support gem nerfs. Who to recommend it to? Good question. I've tried recommending it to a few IRL friends and none of them seem to have any interest. They say the base game was hard enough as is. I'd say it's for people who like a challenge and not just free loot for participating, which is fewer and fewer people nowadays. They also need to have a good amount of time to invest I'd think. And for Trixxar: The lack of active skill gems is not in a good state right now. You can mule gems from other characters (which is lame, tedious and I don't have a good solution for it), which kind of makes that whole idea moot. It's honestly just an inconvenience more than a challenge. Maybe the best option is to let Siosa sell all active gems but at a cost? I'd rather give up a precious alch than level a mule through act 3. Last edited by KZA#6416 on Dec 17, 2022, 1:32:40 AM
| |
|
Obviously not the one to answer, trixxar, that but I do have a thought on that matter.
Not being able to choose your starting active skill is crucial to initiating a famine/feast style mode, especially one aimed at campaign replayability. But that's only the start...
Spoiler
c:> Wishmode.exe
Loading Wishmode..... Wishmode v1.0 (c) First I'd make it hardcore and void. This encourages repeat runs building on what the player learns each run. I'd disable the stash as a shared function so the player can't mule and make future runs easier or more manipulable. And trade, obviously, would have to go. I know, not happening, not in PoE, but bear with. If it's still activated, I'd disable instance creation. Always push forward, Exile. And, pertinent to this subtopic, I'd restrict the number of starting skill options severely (maybe 3 or 4) but pull from as wide a pool as possible. This forces players to choose their path early. Then, almost paradoxically, I'd increase the number of support drops and 3/4L gear around act 4 or 5. This would then give that initial choice of active skills opportunities to grow and evolve into the much harder Acts 5-10. Most support drops would be useless to any one build, but maybe give the player ideas for next time if they are lucky enough to start with/find active skill gems that might use said support skills. And then once/if the player kills Kitava in act 10, they win the game. Maybe to give some sort of incentive, it could have a timer and keep track of how long they spent in each act or somesuch. Number of kills. The usual scoreboard stuff that makes a gamer say, 'I will do better next time'. Then the player starts over, trying to beat that time despite the ruthless nature of the RNG. Or just enjoys what will almost certainly be a different experience thanks to the same RNG. In case it isn't glaringly obvious by now, that's broadly how I'd make Ruthless into a PoE roguelike, given the deviations of the gameplay such as real-time vs turn-based, and more predictable rooms/events per run. The same room/event but with different gear/skills might as well be a different room though... Or they could, with a bit more time and effort, remove the story/quest elements from the campaign (including blocked passages and locked doors), disable way points but enable save anywhere (and I imagine periodic autosaves given the nature of the internet) and make it purely about getting from The Twilight Strand to The Feeding Trough based solely on found gear. That one's barely the germ of a possibility though; don't hold any guns or pointy objects at my head over it. Wishmode dump out of memory error Abort/Retry/Ignore A Quitting Wishmode c:>sigh.exe
maybe?
Kinda odd how a passion project by senior devs is potentially closer to a roguelike than the actual advertised one.
" Thank you for that. As a Xennial (born 1978) who is equally apt to play rogue (doing so right now in fact) or idle/automated RPGs on the phone (a few are genuinely harder than you'd think), I do believe there is room for a game built to do the latter trying something closer to the former. This may be the first time in years we've seen GGG return to their roots of not letting players be the boss, which sounds well and good from a f2p please support us standpoint, but obviously can be taken way too far. I have decided based on your and other reliable OG Exiles' reactions that after I am done with other non-gamey things, I will give Ruthless a go on an alt account and this time, keep my opinions and feedback to myself. :) If I like a game, it'll either be amazing later or awful forever. There's no in-between. I am Path of Exile's biggest whale. Period. Last edited by Foreverhappychan#4626 on Dec 17, 2022, 1:38:09 AM
|
|
|
I was willing to put up with no gem vendors. Reduced drops. yada yada.
But losing the crafting bench was just one too many. |
|
" In Alpha, you got 2 tokens to buy 2 active skill gems from Siosa of your choice, in Act 3 and then later somewhere in acts 6-8. | |
" This idea piqued my interest, so I went look for how well Ruthless is doing. Game mode -- amount of characters -- lowest character level for the list RSanctum -- 3624 -- 11 RHCSanctum -- 910 -- 1 RSSFSanctum -- 1963 -- 6 RHCSSFSanctum -- 1342 -- 1 And that's characters, not players, so there's extremely few people playing the mode. So, if Ruthless was a test for PoE 2 difficulty, then PoE 2 will not follow in suit. | |
" This is still in the game. You still need to mule gems, depending on your build and what you have access to from normal gem rewards. 3.5 build: https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/2299519
|
|
