10% xp penalty is far too frustrating

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Jevial wrote:

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Xtorma wrote:

Death penalty is just something you have to accept. They have always had it and have only adjusted it once I believe. It's core to the game. I don't know how the phycology works, but they believe in it.

Yeah, my point is that I don't have to accept it. I can just go play something else, there is certainly no shortage of competition in the gaming industry these days.

I just thought the end game of path of exile looked really fun. I'd really like to beat the shaper or the elder or whatever some day, but probably won't happen because I'm a casual and the xp penalty has created a wall I am unable to surmount, regardless of how much time I put in.

I just wanted GGG to know that there exists players like me who would probably have put a lot more time (and maybe money) into their game if they just removed the xp penalty. Conversely, I suspect there's very few players that would actually be upset about its removal.

I have two friends that quit playing PoE because of the death penalty. The purpose of the experience point penalty on death is making level 100 a chase goal. GGG made the decision long ago that this chase goal is worth the damage the penalty does to player retention.

What I suggest is not to worry about going up character levels after reaching level 92 or so, depending on your build. Those last few skill points are not really going to help that much for almost any build.

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Turtledove wrote:

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Jevial wrote:

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Xtorma wrote:

Death penalty is just something you have to accept. They have always had it and have only adjusted it once I believe. It's core to the game. I don't know how the phycology works, but they believe in it.

Yeah, my point is that I don't have to accept it. I can just go play something else, there is certainly no shortage of competition in the gaming industry these days.

I just thought the end game of path of exile looked really fun. I'd really like to beat the shaper or the elder or whatever some day, but probably won't happen because I'm a casual and the xp penalty has created a wall I am unable to surmount, regardless of how much time I put in.

I just wanted GGG to know that there exists players like me who would probably have put a lot more time (and maybe money) into their game if they just removed the xp penalty. Conversely, I suspect there's very few players that would actually be upset about its removal.

I have two friends that quit playing PoE because of the death penalty. The purpose of the experience point penalty on death is making level 100 a chase goal. GGG made the decision long ago that this chase goal is worth the damage the penalty does to player retention.

What I suggest is not to worry about going up character levels after reaching level 92 or so, depending on your build. Those last few skill points are not really going to help that much for almost any build.

Not sure what a 'chase' goal is but this does make sense to me. I have been wondering if I should just treat my pansy level of 86 as my cap and stop worrying about death as much. Unfortunately being forced to take such an attitude makes me feel like I've already gone as far as I will go. Progress is reliant entirely on drops and that's not much fun to play for me. XP was always the assured benefit to spending time in the game. Even if you don't get drops or die 6 times before beating the boss you're still making progress you see? The xp penalty annihilating that for losers like myself means the motivation to invest the time is greatly reduced.

I understand though that I am a minority here, and an acceptable loss to GGG. Chalk me up to another one of your friends as a casualty of the xp penalty then. I am certainly no market expert so if they think it's increasing their revenue then it's right to keep it there. I just hope some day they axe it for the sake of casuals like me. Maybe they can even make a 'Softcore' mode that does away with it while leaving standard as is. I can dream anyways.

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Rakushi wrote:

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XeoTech wrote:

There are countless other ARPGS that have no death penalty. XP penalty only serves one purpose: to piss off the player. But that is the theme here with this game, which is why they're still using it.

And there are countless GOOD aRPGs that have a death penalty, so really, you are showcasing a really moot point. I honestly can't think of a single good RPG that I played as of recent, that doesn't punish you for death. I'd like to hear at least 5 of those "countless" RPGs that don't have one, and are also considered good.

XP penalty truelly serves several purposes:
- To make a mistake that you've done ACTUALLY resonate with you, and make you think about what possiblly could have gotten wrong
- Its existance forces you to actually make a build that makes sense, is coherent and works together
- Its existances forces you to actively play the game instead of completly shutting off and playing an AFK-clicker
- To teach you that what you've just done, was wrong, and not to repeat it

In very short, a basic human concept is applied here. You learn little from winning, but a lot from losing. If all you're getting out of your deaths that you are getting pissed off, then it's not on the game to reward ignorance. It very much does not aim to do that.

For the one who says "but it's never my fault! it's my internet!" then I can only respond "How is that a problem for the game? It's not on the developers to fix your internet connection, and it does have servers in a lot of places to ensure a smooth gameplay (I think southern parts of africa are currently the only one's actually struggling for a stable and close connection)

I refuse to believe players like you actually exist.

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OnlyRipper wrote:

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Rakushi wrote:

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XeoTech wrote:

There are countless other ARPGS that have no death penalty. XP penalty only serves one purpose: to piss off the player. But that is the theme here with this game, which is why they're still using it.

And there are countless GOOD aRPGs that have a death penalty, so really, you are showcasing a really moot point. I honestly can't think of a single good RPG that I played as of recent, that doesn't punish you for death. I'd like to hear at least 5 of those "countless" RPGs that don't have one, and are also considered good.

XP penalty truelly serves several purposes:
- To make a mistake that you've done ACTUALLY resonate with you, and make you think about what possiblly could have gotten wrong
- Its existance forces you to actually make a build that makes sense, is coherent and works together
- Its existances forces you to actively play the game instead of completly shutting off and playing an AFK-clicker
- To teach you that what you've just done, was wrong, and not to repeat it

In very short, a basic human concept is applied here. You learn little from winning, but a lot from losing. If all you're getting out of your deaths that you are getting pissed off, then it's not on the game to reward ignorance. It very much does not aim to do that.

For the one who says "but it's never my fault! it's my internet!" then I can only respond "How is that a problem for the game? It's not on the developers to fix your internet connection, and it does have servers in a lot of places to ensure a smooth gameplay (I think southern parts of africa are currently the only one's actually struggling for a stable and close connection)

I refuse to believe players like you actually exist.

If you refuse to believe it, at least give me a basis as to why, if you aren't afraid for me to pick it apart, that is <3

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Jevial wrote:

Not sure what a 'chase' goal is but this does make sense to me. I have been wondering if I should just treat my pansy level of 86 as my cap and stop worrying about death as much. Unfortunately being forced to take such an attitude makes me feel like I've already gone as far as I will go. Progress is reliant entirely on drops and that's not much fun to play for me. XP was always the assured benefit to spending time in the game. Even if you don't get drops or die 6 times before beating the boss you're still making progress you see? The xp penalty annihilating that for losers like myself means the motivation to invest the time is greatly reduced.

I understand though that I am a minority here, and an acceptable loss to GGG. Chalk me up to another one of your friends as a casualty of the xp penalty then. I am certainly no market expert so if they think it's increasing their revenue then it's right to keep it there. I just hope some day they axe it for the sake of casuals like me. Maybe they can even make a 'Softcore' mode that does away with it while leaving standard as is. I can dream anyways.

Chase goal is a term that means a goal that a fair number of players will have as a reason to play the game. Other chase goals may be things like mageblood, headhunter, 40 challenges in a league, etc.

My personal opinion is that GGG should best come up with a different death penalty which would radically change the level 100 chase goal.

I'm not sure if you used an "expert's" build or designed your own but if you designed your own build then you might want to consider trying to find a good "meta" build to play. In either case getting much past level 86 will likely require you to research the build using Path of Building. This is a powerful tool for endgame build polishing and theoretical testing. It is also the most common way for people to share their build with others.

https://pathofbuilding.community/
https://poe.ninja/challengehcssf/builds

A death penalty is a good thing but 10% is a huge penalty after about level 92. Try to get better at maven, lose 60%, no ty. Try uber bosses but lose 60% again no ty. Try extreme juicing and lose 60%, again no ty.

I believe the penalty should slide lower after about 92. Perhaps 5% from 92 to 95, then 3% to 97, then 2% to 100.

I find myself saving up boss runs for just after levelling when dying doesn't matter. I'd rather not do that but if I didn't I just would never level.

Yes I know 100 is for diehards, but many builds don't get 'finished' until between 95 and 97. A smaller death penalty should allow slower levelling rather than the all stop here's as far as I can go you get with the 10% penalty.

GGG doesn't care. You'd think somebody with a brain in their head would think, "hey, with archnemesis making the game stupidly hard and unrewarding, maybe we should rework the death penalty for casual players." Nope, that would make to much sense to do for somebody with an IQ over 100.

Just keeping archnemesis in the game period proves nobody on the dev team has an IQ over 100.

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Jevial wrote:

So this is my first time ever trying to actually do end game content in PoE, so I'm not complaining about this league, as I've never experienced the endgame in any other league to begin with.

I will say though, that the most frustrating thing about end game is simply the 10% xp penalty on death. If the game did not have that, I'd be enjoying everything about it. I don't play hardcore, and I don't care to, but in the end game I feel like it's almost as bad as playing hardcore. I'll kill mobs for hours, and then run into the perfect storm of affixes on a rare that just wreck me multiple times, and all my xp is gone.

It truly decentivizes me as a player. I don't even want to try doing my very first Syndicate Master unless I JUST levelled, because I have no idea how many times I'm gonna die. I am discouraged from trying new content because I'm going to lose all the effort I put in towards my next level.

It's sad, because the end game is great, I don't even mind the 6 portal limit, because if you die 6 times you can accept you're just not ready for that content yet.

But farming mobs for half an hour only to have a small spike in my internet connection ripping that half hour of effort away from me is beyond frustrating. I understand some people need that risk so they can have their adrenaline rushes, but I say those people can go play their hardcore mode, punishing us casual players with this 10% xp penalty is just disrespectful of our time.

I'm hoping to at least get a 10th challenge so I can get my measly tier 1 iridescent wings... but beyond that I think I'm done with PoE unless it stops punishing its own players for playing.

Wouldnt be that bad if Archnemisis was gone.
Join my post "PLEASE PLS PEES" and Quote agree.

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Xzorn wrote:

There needs to be a penalty for making mistakes. That's just how good game design works.

It was before people knew how to do it differently.

There's basically 2 approaches for that:

-Punish a player for messing up.
-Reward a player for succeeding.

The dev's choice is which one to pick there. Currently we're at the first.

Both have ups and downs, the downs of the system we have is that it punishes the people who aren't good players. It pushes them down without letting them progress. People get 'stuck' at specific stages.
This generally doesn't feel nice. Why play if there's no progression?

Death is supposed to have downsides, yes, like loosing the access to the content you're running, which is a risk/reward thing. Hence why 6 portals are a thing in the first place, we already have the downside implemented anyways.

The alternative to the current system is to provide specific rewards only obtainable if you don't die during a map, or leave it at all. This makes you 'loose' on rewards if your character isn't good enough to tackle the content yet without punishing you directly.

Rewards for success are vastly better for the mental state of players compared to punishments for messing up.

It's not good game-design, sorry to say.

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Xzorn wrote:

It makes player strive to improve and gives them reason to try alternate methods.

The lack of success does too. You don't need to be punished. Success is sweet and succulent, punishment is harsh and not enjoyable.

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Xzorn wrote:

When you remove penalties for making mistakes you'll end up in a situation like Warframe where nothing really matters.

If you tackle content alone and you die then your rewards are gone.

Hence it matters.

If you tackle it with a group and your group dies then the rewards are gone.

Once again it matters.

You've put in vast amounts of time to go through a 'rotation' of rewards there. 30 minutes for a single run. Loosing in the last 2 minutes is a hefty setback. I would call that very very much mattering.
Warframe is set up to have large portions of the content being time-based in a survival-style, a gatekeeping on how well you set up your frame and gear to handle it. Not managing to do so will deprive you of the rewards others get. Also it limits you on the rewards you can get solely on a time-based method.

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Xzorn wrote:

Players don't try and even AFK farm.

That's a failure of balancing, not an outcome of there being no active punishment for a lack of success.

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Xzorn wrote:

Once this lazy play method becomes a foundation there's nothing separating performing players from know-nothing lazy ones when it comes to rewards.

Only if you don't have the knowledge of what sort of effort is needed to achieve that state in the first place.
The game allowing you to literally brush aside enemies and stay alive nonetheless is a reward in itself. Seeing your character becoming strong, being strong.
It's the end goal after all. Remove it and you remove the reason for a good chunk of players to even attempt it.

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Xzorn wrote:

Sadly this has been a growing thing in PoE as GGG puts more and more weight on Itemization rather than play or build design. Though it's a different reason the outcome is similar. Time Vs Reward.

True, I can absolutely agree. There needs to be more skill-based content in the game again, not sole DPS checks.

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Xzorn wrote:

But in the end a Death penalty isn't the real problem. It's how players are dying.
Enemy Density is the base-line culprit for a lot of this.

Also very true, as the death penality being an issue only comes into view when the content isn't accessible enough.

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SerialF wrote:

removing the penalty would remove 1 challenge in the game. why would you want that.

To create other challenges instead which this one is in the way of achieving.

Unless you basically wanna say 'look how much time I invested' level 100 does literally say nothing else. It doesn't proclaim you've got a good character.

It can only say that if the death penalty is there and there is no alternative to cheese the system to achieve it. Like buying into it.

This is not the case. Nice goal but sadly not something to be proud of in the current state.

Either it should be made to be an actual achievement or removed in favor of creating other challenges which the death penalty is in the way of currently.

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Xzorn wrote:

It's how you died that matters. No Exp penalty isn't going to change that some deaths are complete BS and out of the player's hands entirely. That's what makes me mad.

Exactly, 100% on that part here.

If I feel like I had no chance to survive an encounter despite gearing for said encounter because of RNG then I'm closing the game.
If I fail because I wasn't good enough with my personal skill then I get irked and try it again until I manage it, getting a feeling of success and enjoyment from it.

Well, one thing to think about is removing death penalty would simply move the "pointlessness" of xp grind to another point: After you reach 100, there is really no more difference between being on 92 and dying too much to level up. If it feels pointless now, it will also fell this way on 100, only on 100 there is truly no way to go up no matter what

Also, the diference between 92 and 100 is rarely noticeable on gameplay tbh. Yeah an extra 80% damage sounds super important on paper, but when you take it into the multiplicative way most things work and how you already got much more than that on other passives and gear, it really hardly makes any diff. Theres a reason pretty much any character guide under the sun plans for no more than 95 max and tells you to just be content with that and everything else is bonus. You really dont need those last levels, its pure luxury

If you are having trouble to progress past 92, maybe just be content with where you are and stop looking at the supposed geener pastures until you upgrade your gear? Maybe 92 IS the level your character deserves on its current power

As for "focus on not rewarding the player", that kinda sounds like the almost stereotypical vision of those kids from the last gen that think rewards is the default state of things. No, just lack of rewards is not something any good game(or most of anything in life for that matter...) pratices. Having the player suffer a setback from failure is better because just lack of rewards encourages getting complacent. Just the perspective of having something better with more effort dont really drives you to become better because the reward is uncertain and abstract, so the average person will learn to be content with where they are, it takes setbacks to make people actually move and rewards are just to encourage the next step