Can you Reflect, Reflected Damage?

I am curious to this subject.
Reading all the forums, wiki's, Reddit posts I cannot find any information about how damage reflection is calculated.

Description, when hit reflects damage back. There is on Block. And when hit.

The Reason why I am asking this question is looking at the Unique item Hiltless. States when you hit an enemy it reflects or forces 100 physical damage to be taken from hitting an enemy.

I am wondering if you can reflect this reflected damage, if the skill you use is a melee attack is it tagged or calculated as melee damage from the Hiltless?

I would also like to know if taking trauma can be reflected, I do understand Boneshatter cannot be used with a sword Just asking if the trauma can be reflected?

If anyone knows the formula for reflection or calculation it would be much appreciated for future reference!!!

The wiki page (https://www.poewiki.net/wiki/Hiltless) states that the reflected damage counts as a hit, and mentions a couple ways that this hit behaves.

From this I assume that you can reflect this damage, but since you would usually have armour when using this sword, you will be taking a very small amount of damage and reflecting even less.

If you get someone to PVP you you might be able to test this.

You can't reflect hiltless's reflect damage (infinite loop issues). The only close thing would be using it to pop your molten shell, especially vaal molten shell.

"

kaijyuu2 wrote:

You can't reflect hiltless's reflect damage (infinite loop issues). The only close thing would be using it to pop your molten shell, especially vaal molten shell.

Are you sure about this? I would have assumed that when you reflect the 'reflected' Hiltless damage, it doesn't proc again, since Hiltless specifies an attack.

Reflected damage can't be reflected back, the reason, as kaijyuu2 noted, is it would cause infinite loop when 2 object with reflect fight each other.

I disagree on the infinite loop situation. One target must die before infinity is achieved otherwise GGG would not have put this mechanic in the game. However infinity can't be achieved due to the fact if you reflected a reflected hit it would not be reflected back due to the weapon Hiltless saying you hit. And the reflection is not a hit.

Further testing will be required to obtain the formula for reflected damage. However reflected damage does state it causes you to take a hit. The only other question remaining is if you use a successful attack skill that causes you to take damage does it apply as an attack is still yet to be unknown. So if you were forced to take reflected damage from the unique item Hiltless.

Does it cause you to take a hit? = Yes

Can the damage be reflected back? = Yes

Is it counted as melee if using a melee skill? = to be determined

Will it be infinite? = No

Because Reflected damage requires a hit to take effect. Effectively with Hiltless you are hitting and causing a reflection which in turn hits you causing a reflection this reflection is not infinite unless reflection is present in the map however infinity cannot be achieved unless both objects or players are immune to death. One target will die before the other. GGG added this to the game in hopes they would be able to balance the mechanic, as it stands it's beyond balance and may even be the next most broken ability. If you take no reflected damage which most players have. This build will not be PvP viable.

The entire point of this discussion is to make a viable thorns build.

While the thorns Stat seems to be useless, it does happen to be one of the remaining original damage outputs since the beginning that has not received a proper nerf or decrease in its abilities.

While a damage calculation has yet to be discovered by players, damage reflection is normally avoided by players at all cost unless your build mitigates or reduces reflected damage by 100%.

Other questions to be explored.

Can you reflect boneshatter?

Does thorns or reflect damage stack together based on items?

I will personally be exploring this mechanic this league even if it destroys what fun I have. However most items with reflect tend to cost much less because the Stat is literally the most undesired skill in the game but we will see!

Reflected damage can't be reflected you are barking down the wrong tree with this one, Thorns was pseudo viable with crown of the pale king until its incoming rework for a defensive layer but as mentioned thats dead too.

Only real "reflect" build i've seen is vaal molten shell shenanings with like the volcano runner, don't remember how old that build was though but it was pretty hilarious.

Hitting yourself builds exist, and retaliation builds exist but reflect damage is DoA i'd just save yourself the time :p thorns is meant to blight your item nothing more.