How about we remove item LEVEL requirements?

removing level requirements can possibly improve poe in a few ways:

1. increased player anticipation
- stats are important to all arpgs. gear/gems in poe all have a stat and level requirement. it is a good system where newer players will quickly realize the importance of having more of a certain stat in order to equip better gear/improve skills and thus be more powerful.
- the current system is sufficient enough to teach newer players this lesson however, this is then hampered by level requirement. leveling a gem is a fun experience, preemptively having more stats to be able to use a gem on level up is fun. but it's not fun to having the gem button greyed out simply due to "you're not high level enough".

2. player progression tied to time spent
- in poe especially for melee players, getting better gear is NOT easy. there is a huge lot of RNG involved, item slot, mod rolls, sockets, links, colours, currency drops. the player is at a huge disadvantage. (*badword* you to that streamer who dropped a mirror in ssf sentinel)
- players are expected to kill monsters, get gear/xp/currency in order to improve their build. when rng is not in their favour, they lose access to gear/currency. if their build is bad or they simply suck, they lose access to XP. however, if level requirements were removed, players would now have access to a new avenue of player progression. which is via better gear/skills should they have sufficient stats.

3. encourage rerolls
- usually people who reroll would try saving some low level gear for a new reroll. the process can be tedious and it could be wasteful as they could have 20/20 gems waiting to be swapped out once the new character reaches the required level.
- having gear/gems not tied to levels, players could supplement rerolls with gear that has a lot of stats in order for them to use better gear/gems or even end game gear. the releveling / replaying the campaign process could become much more fun this way as players can blaze thru content faster and actually enjoy their obscene power.

4. twinking is fun.
- i m taking the term twinking from anarchy online. twinking is the art of manipulating a character's stats in order to equip gear/abilities that they normally shouldnt be able to. usually meaning a low level character with higher leveled gear.
-one thing i loved doing in ao was twinking my low level character. level 10 characters could be buffed up to use gear 30-50 levels above their current level due to manipulating buffs, gears and implants. in a way it becomes a neat puzzle game where the players can figure out interesting ways to switch and replace gear. i need 30 str to wear that chest that gives me 50 str. ok great now i got that 50 str chest, i can equip a different pair of gloves that gives me 100 str. etc. it is also an aspect of torchlight 1/2 that i liked where i could stash some really good gear and reroll and could use it simply by fulfilling the stat requirements.
- figuring out how to twink your character was a fun thing to do. i do realize that astramentis and atziri's foible could trivialize the entire affair but i would imagine players would also want to find different ways to twink their character without being forced to use those items in their "ready to play" form.

on another note, i see little to no downsides for removing character level requirement. if i get enough stats, let me use the thing!

Actually, Torchlight 2 (which you invoked) comes pretty close to what you want, in that equip requirements there are 'level OR stats' instead of 'level AND stats'. You, sir, have laid forth your arguments in favor; while I believe them reasonable I am curious to hear out rational opposition. While you make mention of Astramentis and Atziri's Foible as possible issues, I believe them to be edge cases due to their rarity.

On another note: leaving aside the different art style, TL2 has no shortage of nice-looking armor sets (even if you discount the legendaries). Which makes it such a pity that it never got Grim Dawn's 'illusionist' system (which, for a fee of ingame currency, allowed you to skin an item as another of the same class). Now that I think about it, such a mechanic could be implemented here using (for example) transmutation orbs) as a replacement for the skin transfer MTX (which I have long thought should have never made it into the store).

1. Huge problem without the level requirement for gems: leveling and playing through the acts. The level requirement of gems serves two purposes: limiting the power you have while leveling, and increasing the relevance of gear. If you have a level 20 gem at level 1 - lets say, 50, gear is completely meaningless apart from reaching the stats needed to equip the gem which is SUPER easy to fulfill. Weapon improvement becomes next to meaningless, and especially with defensive auras, all other gear becomes meaningless. Completely against the spirit of an loot-based arpg.

2. Level requirement allows for more powerful mods to be placed on items. I think you overlook the fact that the entire tiered mod system is based on level, not stat. If level requirements weren't a thing, you could have some pretty absurd items being used by extremely low level characters. They would need to change the entire stat system of the game in order for this idea to work. They would need to assign STAT requirements for specific random mods which would be TERRIBLE. Also, right now, within the first ten levels of the game I can reach 100 of a single stat, possibly close to 100 with multiple stats. Some of the best items in the game hardly require more than that and most require less. If I'm able to equip my best items at level 10, I will be bored of the game by level 30 and quit. It's like oldschool game-hacking: giving yourself absurd stats or absurd gear way above what your normal power level SHOULD be trivializes the game to the point where there is simply no reason to continue playing. I have done this with countless games that only have a stat requirement for gear and it gets boring FAST. The "fun" aspect of being in god-mode goes away VERY quickly

I agree with your point that twinking is fun, HOWEVER there is a limit. You can pretty much delete the entire storyline simply by equipping a tabula. Twinking with unique items and full links gives you the dps to trivialize everything, but it retains the sense of growth you get by not starting you out with endgame stats. I think you overestimate the enjoyment you'll get by doing millions of damage during the leveling process. How often do you take your endgame character back to act 1 to play? That's essentially what it would be.

"

Firefly00 wrote:

Actually, Torchlight 2 (which you invoked) comes pretty close to what you want, in that equip requirements there are 'level OR stats' instead of 'level AND stats'. You, sir, have laid forth your arguments in favor; while I believe them reasonable I am curious to hear out rational opposition. While you make mention of Astramentis and Atziri's Foible as possible issues, I believe them to be edge cases due to their rarity.

On another note: leaving aside the different art style, TL2 has no shortage of nice-looking armor sets (even if you discount the legendaries). Which makes it such a pity that it never got Grim Dawn's 'illusionist' system (which, for a fee of ingame currency, allowed you to skin an item as another of the same class). Now that I think about it, such a mechanic could be implemented here using (for example) transmutation orbs) as a replacement for the skin transfer MTX (which I have long thought should have never made it into the store).

the closest we can get to a perfect TL2 is via using mods. theres so many mods that improve the game a huge lot. tl2's level and stats, system is a good compromise where you still could twink but to a limited extent.

its really a shame that TL3 couldnt live up to its potential.

"

jsuslak313 wrote:

I agree with your point that twinking is fun, HOWEVER there is a limit. You can pretty much delete the entire storyline simply by equipping a tabula. Twinking with unique items and full links gives you the dps to trivialize everything, but it retains the sense of growth you get by not starting you out with endgame stats. I think you overestimate the enjoyment you'll get by doing millions of damage during the leveling process. How often do you take your endgame character back to act 1 to play? That's essentially what it would be.

i see your points but i would bring emphasis to "how this change affects players"

for a new character in a new league, OP end game items/items with t1 rolls are not accessible to begin with. i only propose to remove level requirements to wear/use an item but i didnt mention allowing such items to drop from level 1. items still have their itemlevels and some can only drop from higher leveled monsters. for a "FRESH" new character in a league, or to a new player playing poe for the first time, removing the level requirement changes nothing for them. they have no access to good gear at the start.

all the gear that you mentioned, are only obtainable if the player has an alt. which normally means they are an old player or simply someone who wants to reroll.
it is very likely they have already cleared all the campaign content already. many older players are already asking for an option to skip the campaign entirely. to which i would say removing the level requirement can be a compromise. let the players reroll and steamroll through the campaign if they really want to.

if a new player is fed items or chooses to go trade, spoiling their experience is their onus. i once powerleveled a friend from a1 to a3 in an hour or so. he got pissed off at me coz he didnt know wtf was going on, the story/player progression etc. he promptly deleted his character and rerolled.

i believe we shouldnt restrict players too much that they dont get to choose how they want to enjoy the game. well... with reasonable restrictions of course.

your last question "how often do we take our end game character back to level 1?" my answer is 0. but i did use to randomly go back to bully malachai back when bosses could get stunned easily. it was hilarious perma stunning him in his invulnerable phases, not allowing him to transition to the next phase. i digress, my point still is who would actually suffer from this change? an older player who wants to "re-experience" leveling or the campaign can easily get that fresh new feel every new league start.

that said you 2nd point on that you have experienced pure stat based games and getting bored with them fast, i recognize that this is a very valid issue as this directly takes away from your enjoyment of the game. which you are right in that aspect, in POE if we focus just on travelling to get stats, a marauder could easily get to 210 str just by passives before level 20 which can equip all non unique str based gear in the game. the only thing i would say to this is that the player is still limited by the fact that they cant get end game items if they are playing a new character in a new league.

as for your first point, weapon improvement/auras etc, i would still maintain that in poe's case specifically, players are already starved of resources. poe is particularly stingy when it comes to drops especially in the early game.

in other arpgs that i've played drops are much more generous albeit the drops was probably balanced around the game meant to be a single player experience first in opposition to poe. have you ever tried leveling a melee character in POE? the experience is bad. the experience is SO bad GGG actually made some melee skill gems have flat damage on them so that players could be LESS RELIANT on weapons.

even with that, new players STILL have to work for it, they need to kill mobs to level up their gems.

removing the level requirement effectively only truly effects new players/new characters that have no gear.

if youre an older player that insists on having a limited leveling experience without items spoiling your experience, new league and SSF are 2 options available.

^i would edit your final conclusion: it only affects new players who choose to play ssf...which is an EXTREME minimum.

In a trade league, most uniques from zero to endgame end up being worth 1c or less within a week or two. This makes lower level uniques completely and utterly useless. Additionally, within the first DAY the market is flooded with rares with t2-3 rolls for 1 alt. Any player can get 1 alt practically before level 5.

Players in a trade league, especially new players like to save currency and buy gear upgrades at regular intervals. But that all goes away without level requirements, because why would you buy a current "level 10" sword when a "lvl 60" sword is the same price? You really think players would shoot themselves in the foot willingly (without selecting hc or ssf in the first place)?

You are assuming that new players in a trade league would completely ignore trade...that simply wouldn't happen. Truly NEW players are either following a build, or they will quickly hit a wall that is only overcome by interacting with trade. New players who aren't following a build are overwhelmed by the passive tree, and frustrated with the difficulty of act 1. They aren't about to punish themselves when trade is going to be right there...And the second they do trade, they get an item that propels them 60 levels into the future...what kind of experience would that be?

"

jsuslak313 wrote:

^i would edit your final conclusion: it only affects new players who choose to play ssf...which is an EXTREME minimum.

In a trade league, most uniques from zero to endgame end up being worth 1c or less within a week or two. This makes lower level uniques completely and utterly useless. Additionally, within the first DAY the market is flooded with rares with t2-3 rolls for 1 alt. Any player can get 1 alt practically before level 5.

Players in a trade league, especially new players like to save currency and buy gear upgrades at regular intervals. But that all goes away without level requirements, because why would you buy a current "level 10" sword when a "lvl 60" sword is the same price? You really think players would shoot themselves in the foot willingly (without selecting hc or ssf in the first place)?

You are assuming that new players in a trade league would completely ignore trade...that simply wouldn't happen. Truly NEW players are either following a build, or they will quickly hit a wall that is only overcome by interacting with trade. New players who aren't following a build are overwhelmed by the passive tree, and frustrated with the difficulty of act 1. They aren't about to punish themselves when trade is going to be right there...And the second they do trade, they get an item that propels them 60 levels into the future...what kind of experience would that be?

interestingly talking about trade and following builds is opening up a huge can of worms. i would agree with you that having too much power early game entirely spoils the campaign. but in the same vein, doesnt following builds rob players from the enjoyment of exploring the game/mechanics?

but you do make a solid point "tradewise". leveling items could be rendered valueless should item level be removed entirely and i totally missed that out.

that said, our original course of conversation was focused more on the "leveling" aspect or enjoyment derived out of the campaign.

you are right on your assessment that the change could heavily affect those in trade leagues with the caveat that a few days have passed AND the player actually has currency. the only counter argument i can provide is that trading is an option that players have access to.

you bringing up the point that a truly newer player would actually just follow a build is really... a good wake up for me. i've been playing so long i didnt realize or perhaps i blinded myself to that this is what POE has turned into.

newer players are robbed of the sense of exploration

Even me myself if i were new and hit the wall i DEFINITELY would resort to trade and look for the best item i can use based on my stats.

i guess the only options left to make stat based gear work are either to disable trading until a certain level - which is not good

or reducing level requirements rather than outright removing them.

there is a third option tho, which i dont think will happen, which is levels are removed but stat requirements are increased.

i am actually more in favour of increasing stat requirements if it meant level requirements are removed. then again fine tuning how much stats is perfect would be a big hassle for ggg, nor do i think people in poe community in general would agree to such a drastic change

totally agree that modern PoE punishes the exploration aspect so much that it is practically impossible to play the game through act 1 as a new player who improvises a build. It just doesn't work...

Third option (no level, increased stats) is a huge problem because then the fundamental structure of the game would need to change. As I mentioned before, specific mod tiers and mods themselves have level requirements for obvious reasons. If level requirements didn't exist, those mods would have STAT requirements which would be bonkers. Imagine having to get 500 or more of EACH stat because of the mods on your gear...And if the stats were too low that wouldn't work either because then every single player would just use astramentis and be able to equip everything in the game at any level, making leveling AND passive tree progress basically moot.

I know that the original conversation was leveling, but every point I've been trying to make is geared towards leveling, but from a longevity perspective. If you have a hacked player right from the start, there is no sense of growth for a LONG period of time. The passive tree is important, but if you have maxed gems, maxed gear right at the beginning, putting in passives is just not going to be that interesting of a game for anyone. It's essentially an idle game at that point with extremely incremental progress. I believe the appeal of PoE is that moment when your build begins to roll and you can start pushing harder content, with faster times. This whole idea would destroy all of that.

I think it would be far better for the game to just have the option to skip leveling for successive characters, or have different ways to level (a la Diablo 3 post-campaign). Erasing level requirements, in my opinion, just isn't the way to go when loot improvement is 90% of the game...

I would suggest that lvl requirement only applies as long as any character has not
- finished 10 acts or
- reached lvl80 or
- reached lvl90.
After that the lvl requirement should be removed for all gear and gems until league ends.

Never had issues for level requirements playing single character every league