Just started to watch this MMO documentary again and...

I don't think there'll be much cross-section between Exiles and ongoing DI players. I've played both...quite a lot. Very different experiences. And neither are what I'd consider a good ARPG experience at all. As I said, once you strip the nostalgia factor, DI has very little to offer an ARPG veteran. Beyond the story, it was made to simulate the ARPG gameplay loop on a fairly simple platform, and it does that quite well. It was also made to get people addicted to that loop so that they'll put money into improving it. That part I expect will do just fine on mobile, where players are used to doing that. On PC...not so much. We'll see. Maybe DI will be the final proof to so-called Masterracers that mobile games have come a loooong way since Angry Birds and Candy Crush (even though those sorts of games still make serious bank too).

I think Crate know the curtain's fallen on the ARPG genre. They gave us not one but two absolutely excellent ARPGs, one despite a lot of pressure from the higher ups to make it more kid-friendly. And the other was so good, THQ Nordic resurrected it on, of all the platforms, mobile. Blizzard are very fortunate more people do not know that Titan Quest on mobile is leagues beyond anything else on there ARPG-wise. Then again, it's also not f2p (of course) so at 20 bucks or so (including expansions), it's considered far too expensive for a mobile game these days. Again, ironic, in light of how much one can expect to spend on a mobile f2p game if one chooses to get even vaguely serious about it.

I don't think there's sufficient incentive for anyone to make the 'WoW of ARPGs' now. Aside from the reasons I've given, I should also point out it can't be free to play or a lifestyle game/GAAS. WoW used the same financial model as most MMOs before it (buy to play+sub+expansions). A f2p ARPG would just be following in PoE's footsteps, which was not the usual mode for an ARPG and almost certainly resulted in the game's loss of balance and quality design (but certainly assured its longevity). And that means the 'WoW of ARPGs' almost certainly wouldn't make as much money as a cheaper-to-make GAAS/Lifestyle game in a more popular genre. This is why we looked to indies like Wolcen Studio and Eleventh Hour Games, but both of them are now in bed with f2p-funded monstrosities (Wargaming and Tencent respectively) so who knows how long Wolcen and Last Epoch will remain as Games as Products.

But yeah, I'd love to see it happen. I'd love to be wrong, to be proven a pessimist. Every pessimist thinks they're a realist; every realist thinks they're a pessimist. Neither would mind being called an optimist once in a while.

Easy games will always be more popular than hard ones. Thats why Diablo 3 had 10 times more people than PoE (before it died to ono updates for years)

the difference i see between old games and new ones is the monetization mentality.

old games: "let's make a good game with quality content so we can sell more copies over time"

modern games: "market is saturated so lets create an eye candy game that appeals to the widest population posible designed around mechanics that encourage people to spend as much as posible before they get bored and move on to the next game"

I was just thinking to the early days of POE and how much more grindy it seemed. Barely being able to get map drops and the gear to run them. That really kept me from getting into the game at the time although I did dabble in it every once in a while. Breach league was where it really took off for me. It just felt better and then even better in many ways with each successive league. There was this feeling in the background though that one day the game could become too saturated with mechanics.

With this mentality I tried to put myself in a new player's shoes for 3.18 and how I would have reacted playing the first few days. Would I have even bothered coming back? I wonder why the game was allowed to speed up in the first place, but now they want to go back to the original vision of slow punishing gameplay. To prepare for POE 2? This is POE 1 though.... why not let it be and then POE 2 will be it's own thing once it's released?

It just feels that piling on the mechanics from past leagues would cause this bloat. We have to use so much 3rd party sites/"literature" in order to discover the best route to success for whichever build we choose. (determining gear drop locations, crafting options and where to obtain the currencies, which of the support gems work best with our main skill etc.) It was pleasing to see that some of the old leagues like perandus could get removed so it could help with the bloat. Perhaps something like this will keep happening in time?

I personally like the idea of the leveling process being the introduction. Maps are where it heats up and we prepare for the end game bosses. Now there are late end game bosses to keep us pushing for greater challenge and rewards. People should be sucked in by the leveling campaign... not deterred.

D4 seemingly would be the most likely candidate based on the resources they have to make something good in the genre. Obviously though, looking at D3 is a stark reminder of what can go wrong with the "dumbing down" of certain aspects of the game.

Lot's of interesting responses. I suppose only time will tell how things all play out.

"

Beglets wrote:

"

Durf wrote:

Just started to watch this MMO documentary again and...

So what's the name of the documentary? I'd like to watch it too.

It's called "World of Warcraft - Pandora's Box" done by Mad Season.

"

Imaginaerum wrote:

considering the only real competitor Diablo 2 has had since it got released is Path of Exile I don't find it likely anyone is going to release a competitor to this game anytime soon

Diablo Immoral will generate tens of millions of dollars like any other soulless miscreation

Diablo 4 will be filled with characters that match blizzard's new official diversity checkbox and we'll all be forced to sign a social contract to play the limited access multiplayer mode, and will also sell millions but will wind up being another soulless miscreation

nobody else dares make an ARPG lol

LOLd at "diversity checkbox"

Tell me you're a racist/sexist/homophobic without telling me LOLOL

Perhaps a bit an off-topic, but lately I was thinking about WoW - how old players were seriously upset when Blizzard decided to appease the masses and made the leveling/questing part laughably easy where you would never run out of mana and were never in any danger even when ambushed by several enemies. Maybe I'm making this up, but I think Blizzard even admitted their mistake once - that they basically betrayed their loyal veterans because of this strategy.

So making a game easier/more casual might not always be the right move. Another question is whether the game really needs to be made harder and harder than it was originally?

PoE was already a pretty niche, difficult and complex game from the start. Maybe it was easy for the streamers who play 10 hours daily and veterans, so called 1%, but I believe not for the most. I'm also not saying it should appease to someone who barely finishes the acts, but there must be a middle ground, and maybe the game really needs to be balanced around that - not around the 1 %, and neither around the super casuals.

"

Kurnis wrote:

LOLd at "diversity checkbox"

Tell me you're a racist/sexist/homophobic without telling me LOLOL

please don't shorten your lifespan with this self induced stress you cause yourself

"

caboom wrote:

the difference i see between old games and new ones is the monetization mentality.

old games: "let's make a good game with quality content so we can sell more copies over time"

modern games: "market is saturated so lets create an eye candy game that appeals to the widest population posible designed around mechanics that encourage people to spend as much as posible before they get bored and move on to the next game"

Welcome to XXI. Its all about money nowadays. Not just in games. Everywhere.

PoE is in danger because Chris Wilson is the boss. nothing else, started 3 years ago the actual state of the game is a disaster

Personally as someone who was there I'd say that WoWs biggest win was the standard blizzard win, taking someone elses concept polishing it and adding QoL. In DAoC to get a quest you had to type words to ncps it was an extremely strange system. WoW's ! quest givers is now so pervasive It pisses me off when I see quest givers with an exclamation mark.

Its a million little things like that, but less punishing? Vanilla WoW was just as punishing as DAoC was infact its pretty likely it was more punishing.

PoE in its current state has no specific competitor, D4 will be for a specific window but with what we know about current blizzard its extremely unlikely to be a competitor for longer than that specific window.

The only thing GGG have to worry about is ARPG players going to play non ARPGs not anything within the genre.