Is steam charts a true depiction of players?

PoE "suffers" from having a lot of long-time players that keep coming back to the game. They have been playing for years, and keep coming back for new leagues, new content and the activity that comes a long with new leagues. I supposed it only gets harder and harder to keep their attention, so they play for a shorter and shorter duration each league.

That said, each league lives its own life - but the last weeks are always pretty low on the charts.

Anyhow, it's only natural.

A few points.

1. We do know the breakdown of Steam vs Client in a general % because occasionally GGG let's us know about concurrency records when a league hits them.(then you do quick maths) The most recent data indicated the majority played via Steam, like 60/40.

2. GGG has an internal algorithm for amount of time played to that player being monetized. We dont know what that is, and it's something I'd like to have a general sense of that might explain some questionable design decisons. Obviously you cant monetize someone that isnt playing, but I'm curious about those like myself, that wont contribute a single penny again. (Or those that have always been F2P)

3. GGG in more recent leagues has really tried to market the game through Twitch. More than they have ever done in years past. Imo this is massive double edged sword for a couple of reasons.

One, PoE is extremely hostile to new players, so while your player numbers increase, your retention numbers suffer even more. This creates a narrative that people are abandoning the game at an ever increasing pace (because that's what the data shows).

The second reason is that it highlights the huge gulf that exists between the average player and the more hardcore, no-life, pro-gamer. Unfortunately the latter has an unhealthy percentage of influence on GGG and how the game is developed and balanced.

So overall it's a real problem. GGG appears to want their game designed for a certain type of gamer, but they want to market to those casual dollars and concurrency metrics. They are literally pitting player experience against each other, and seemingly shrugging at community conflict. Its truly mindblowing. I wish they would just pick a path and then commit. It would be a better experience for all.

Pretty sure they've picked their path. They haven't deviated much since they adopted the 13 week league structure.

That's not the path I'm talking about. The development windows (which are, I think. a problem, just not related to this), are separate from their in-game balance, QoL, and player experience overall.

The path I'm talking about is either make the game more centrist, or have casual players in mind, or make it more.. idk, I don't really wish to be super inflammatory here. The "complexity, mechanic experts, pro-gamer, 80 hour a week, TFT warrior" type stuff. If that's the niche they want, embrace it. Focus on it. Make that experience better.

Right now both sides are frustrated. Either its becoming to casual, easy, faceroll, or the 3 month grind, nerfs, balance manifesto, meta juggling, is too much for an average gamer.

Fortunately, I don't have to care about the management / market design issues. I play a few weeks every league, do the endgame I'm interested in and then I can play other games or, god forbid, do something constructive.

"

DarthSki44 wrote:

A few points.

1. We do know the breakdown of Steam vs Client in a general % because occasionally GGG let's us know about concurrency records when a league hits them.(then you do quick maths) The most recent data indicated the majority played via Steam, like 60/40.

2. GGG has an internal algorithm for amount of time played to that player being monetized. We dont know what that is, and it's something I'd like to have a general sense of that might explain some questionable design decisons. Obviously you cant monetize someone that isnt playing, but I'm curious about those like myself, that wont contribute a single penny again. (Or those that have always been F2P)

3. GGG in more recent leagues has really tried to market the game through Twitch. More than they have ever done in years past. Imo this is massive double edged sword for a couple of reasons.

One, PoE is extremely hostile to new players, so while your player numbers increase, your retention numbers suffer even more. This creates a narrative that people are abandoning the game at an ever increasing pace (because that's what the data shows).

The second reason is that it highlights the huge gulf that exists between the average player and the more hardcore, no-life, pro-gamer. Unfortunately the latter has an unhealthy percentage of influence on GGG and how the game is developed and balanced.

So overall it's a real problem. GGG appears to want their game designed for a certain type of gamer, but they want to market to those casual dollars and concurrency metrics. They are literally pitting player experience against each other, and seemingly shrugging at community conflict. Its truly mindblowing. I wish they would just pick a path and then commit. It would be a better experience for all.

I agree with all of this except the sentence I highlighted.

Because so far, against all logic (and I admire you arguing from an ostensibly logical stance), it's worked wonders. The only analogue I can come up with on the fly is Vegemite. For the uninitiated, Vegemite/Marmite is a wildly popular spread that tastes indescribably awful at first, and at second, and then suddenly you're smearing that shit on toast like a maniac every day.

And how do they make it? They throw together fairly banal and common ingredients that on their own are quite inoffensive (yeast, onions, malt, celery, salt) until they resemble an unpalatable, viscous black paste straight out of a HR Giger wet dream.

Only fairly recently did people really wonder why it worked, and the answer is, of course, 'umami'. Vegemite/Marmite hits the same flavour base as soy but in a much stronger dose. So it SORT of makes sense, but it's still, as you put it, extremely hostile to new users.

PoE is the Vegemite of computer games.

"

Foreverhappychan wrote:

"

DarthSki44 wrote:

A few points.

1. We do know the breakdown of Steam vs Client in a general % because occasionally GGG let's us know about concurrency records when a league hits them.(then you do quick maths) The most recent data indicated the majority played via Steam, like 60/40.

2. GGG has an internal algorithm for amount of time played to that player being monetized. We dont know what that is, and it's something I'd like to have a general sense of that might explain some questionable design decisons. Obviously you cant monetize someone that isnt playing, but I'm curious about those like myself, that wont contribute a single penny again. (Or those that have always been F2P)

3. GGG in more recent leagues has really tried to market the game through Twitch. More than they have ever done in years past. Imo this is massive double edged sword for a couple of reasons.

One, PoE is extremely hostile to new players, so while your player numbers increase, your retention numbers suffer even more. This creates a narrative that people are abandoning the game at an ever increasing pace (because that's what the data shows).

The second reason is that it highlights the huge gulf that exists between the average player and the more hardcore, no-life, pro-gamer. Unfortunately the latter has an unhealthy percentage of influence on GGG and how the game is developed and balanced.

So overall it's a real problem. GGG appears to want their game designed for a certain type of gamer, but they want to market to those casual dollars and concurrency metrics. They are literally pitting player experience against each other, and seemingly shrugging at community conflict. Its truly mindblowing. I wish they would just pick a path and then commit. It would be a better experience for all.

I agree with all of this except the sentence I highlighted.

Because so far, against all logic (and I admire you arguing from an ostensibly logical stance), it's worked wonders. The only analogue I can come up with on the fly is Vegemite. For the uninitiated, Vegemite/Marmite is a wildly popular spread that tastes indescribably awful at first, and at second, and then suddenly you're smearing that shit on toast like a maniac every day.

And how do they make it? They throw together fairly banal and common ingredients that on their own are quite inoffensive (yeast, onions, malt, celery, salt) until they resemble an unpalatable, viscous black paste straight out of a HR Giger wet dream.

Only fairly recently did people really wonder why it worked, and the answer is, of course, 'umami'. Vegemite/Marmite hits the same flavour base as soy but in a much stronger dose. So it SORT of makes sense, but it's still, as you put it, extremely hostile to new users.

PoE is the Vegemite of computer games.

That's fair. And plausible.

But also "why it worked" doesn't necessarily, and often doesn't, represent "why it will continue to work" in the business world. In fact, it can be a killer for a company, or drown out those that have been in leadership for a long time. Sometimes financial success can mask bad ideas, re-enforce poor behaviors, and hide inefficiencies, simply because the revenue stream is there. It can be a false indicator, and one that investors, VC groups, Loss Control Companies tend look at specifically. I would point to the bro-culture, toxic work environments, and immature management of some of the successful tech companies as an example. It's too reductive imo, to simply say "well it worked so..."

I suppose my point about a "problem" is that you cannot continue to alienate your customers from the point of view that it doesn't really matter what you do, they will return. Taking your customers for granted is the quickest way to either loose them to the competition (which more is coming), have them poison the customers that do remain (formus, reddit, socials), or what I would think is even worse, a collection of low motivated, un-monetized, F2P drones. They show up at launch, clog your servers, do not spend any money, and really don't care what happens to PoE generally speaking. After a brief couple days of dopamine hits, they venture off to whatever the fuck else is a better use of their time.

There will always be those that eat whatever GGG is serving as Sandwich of the Quarter, regardless if it's shit, or shit-lite, or actual vegemite. They shouldn't worry about those folks. They should worry about the casual money drying up because the game isn't fun anymore, or further pushes a disproportional sacrifice of the players time or money.

"

DarthSki44 wrote:

Side note. I'm super curious how GGG intends to justify PoE2's development expense and RoI given the current monetization model. They have indicated all MTX and Stash purchases will transfer, but man, if it's just a really expensive and large expansion... I just don't see the money.

All big expansions have led to an increase in player numbers. So it totally makes sense.

Big expansions lead to people going "thank you" and "well done" and they open their wallets to reciprocate.

I have no doubt that when POE2 launches it will be the biggest pay day/week/month/year they have had. And it will increase the total active playerbase, leading to a flow on effect of an increase in revenue of later leagues.