Fortify, Flasks and Armour - short feedback

Armour.

Ive been rambling around here about Armour for ages. My opinion didnt change:

- Armour from gear is a meme. AR/EV values on gear are here to make socket colouring easier. Not for stats. 3.16 changes made it EVEN MORE so.
- Armour is mostly irrelevant vs endgame bosses. Go check Maven/Sirus/Feared fights and tell me if Armour is of ANY value there? (Armour as in 'Armour', not fuel of Molten Shell)
- Armour curve while better than previously is still horrible. It took 50k Armour, 7 ECharges and Molten Shell to actually be calm taking Chimaera's hits to the face. It takes FAR LESS investment into block to reach the same spot. FAR LESS.
- Elemental STILL shreds. OVERinvesting into +max res is laughable suggestion. It just does not work. Stuff like angry Harvest mobs output 200k+ burst elemental damage at you. going from 75% to 80% max res changes jack sh..



I do not know how much testing went into Armour 'rework' but i doubt it was much. Suggestion:

Armour from gear has to matter. Right now values on gear are 100% meaningless thanks to Determination and flasks (more on that later). Noone takes %AR prefixes anyway. These are wasted stats noone will ever consider taking. The competition for these 2 precious affixes is just too strong. Double the base values? Tripple them? right now AR gear just does not matter (yada yada excluding some uniques - Crown of the Inward Eye - and shields ofc. oh and that +max res 'pick me because im best' armour)

Armour HAS to provide % ele reduction based in its value. Otherwise 0 AR and 50000 AR is the same vs endgame.


Flasks.

Rolling new flasks with 80 new affixes is one of the worst experiences ive ever had in gaming. Vomiting all this bloat into already bloated and unfun affix pool was 100% not needed. It brought no value, it is 'the nets' all over again. Rolling flasks before reaching highest bases is so expensive that noone does it and even then it is easier to just buy them.

What is worse - new affixes are nowhere to be found. Wiki is dead (yes, the new one too), trade site uses this weird 'increased instead of reduced' for some reason making the experience revolting. using POB to check what bestiary crafts mean.. like WTF?

on the other hand new patch introduced a well overdue buff to Armour builds:

Flasks that refill when you are hit



Guess what % of my 50k Armour comes from these two flasks (that you can keep up even in Sirus fight)? 40%. 40% of total Armour comes from thin air. While i do not want it be changed because it actually allows me to reach a threshold when Armour actually does something when it matters it is just silly.

All my gear and 240% passives = 8000 Armour
turn Determination on and these two flsks = 50k

there is something seriously wrong about 'where my Armour comes from'. It was never right but right now it is just weird.


Fortify

Fortify changes are possibly the most slopy 3.x change.
Nothing in this change makes sense, seriously.

- Fortify Support is just junk. Vs endgame stuff it is not enough to keep the fortify up. You HAVE to invest into at least one cluster (while still wasting link on a subpar support)
- one cluster that might or might not be in your area and is not free. Manifesto didnt state that 'we will make it worse AND more expensive' for melee..
- 'gain 1 Fortify' mastery is pretty much mandatory for DoT builds. There are TWO problems in this sentence: Masteries were to be optional? right? and DoT builds have a pretty long and wasteful pathing to Mara/Duelist area
- Mythic thresholds that are as clear as tax legislation - there are stun threshold, ailment thresholds, modified thresholds, unique thresholds, hidden thresholds, mythic thresholds and unknown thresholds. Name me one player who KNOWS how this stuff works (and if it works as intended - see stun thresholds that are broken since last Great Threshold Rework when they were simply forgotten). engaging with mechanics this intangible is just not fun.

Old Fortify situation was healthier than what we have now. While i can see at least some grounds in all other reworks - Fortify rework looks like 'we have 30 minutes, lets do it' type of task. Just revert it, keep the clusters.



https://pastebin.com/CLX9TPEM

POB of a char that made me write all this. I wanted to make a fully TheVision compliant melee 2h character using Armour + +max res on a normal budget. I know you can use better weapon (i have one in my offhand) and sprinkle some more %dot multi but:


- Bleed EQ is a joke compared to same investment caster. Damage is atrocious, gearing is limited and clearspeed is a solid 3/10
- Armour is trick based, AR on gear means NOTHING
- +max res is far too expensive to get to have an effect. Any map with -max res / phys as extra ele is a suicide. Loreweave gives unconditional 78%
- killed A8 Sirus with it. took ages because melee bleed build vs immobile blinking boss is a lol-worthy experience. melee needs 'melee ensnaring arrow' of sorts, badly, for this type of encounter
- dont nitpick the gear or passive point here and there. it is thrash from my stash (body, rings) and passives wait till i reach 92 to respec into megalomaniac

- I use Divine Shield to see how much work Armour is actually doing. Hint: not much, not much at all.

Having the same experience so far.
I slap Determination and wear Evasion or Energy Shield gear, depending on the build, use flasks and that's it.
I don't even bother with Fortify on melees anymore. It'll be up against normal/magic monsters but once again, that's it, when you don't need it the most.

On such builds, you can straight up ignore physical damage for the most part, which feels nice obviously.

And then, any kind of elemental damage wrecks you. Hard.
75% or 80% maximum resistance won't change much.

If you don't instantly delete the screen, you'll face hordes of rare monsters stacking auras (don't get me started on benevolent guardian nemesis mod there ...) which you won't handle in any way or form on a melee armour based character.

+1

I appreciate this very accurate and true description of state of armour and especially the issue where the armour comes from and where it should come from.
At the same time im suprised that no one else seems to talk about this glaring issue.

GGG changed Blind from 50% free evade chance for exactly that reason. Everyone could get it and now its way harder to utilize it for builds with 0 evasion.

I see league builds on the min/max scale getting 2 million armour out of thin air with maybe two low armour gear pieces rest is flasks determination/grace/iron reflexes/aura effect its a very poor designed siutation. The new generation of aura stackers arent really in a worse position than before.

Example PoB:
https://pastebin.com/1Efa54cA


https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=9dE9ZYGjfJ0

Sure its expensive but that is not the point.
The point is 'where does your armour come from'. And for the most part armour comes from a virtual layer of boosted flasks and aura effect stacked auras which is bad design in my opinion. Gear should be the main source of armour. If you have no gear for it all those aura effect auras and flasks should not do 2+ million.

Don't forget the Basalt Flask nerf, which hits evasion builds very hard. Getting physical damage reductions became very hard. Yet there's a ridiculous amount of physical oneshots and degen around.

+1

Agree on the armour thing. It would make more sense if it actually did something and wasn't so easily bypassed by elemental damage, and that's not even taking damage scaling from mobs and multipliers into account.

Flasks...yeah...all the affixes and rolling flasks...what a nightmare and something that not needed. Useless tier system and just throwing more and more RNG onto something that didn't need it...likely was more of a currency sink idea rather than trying to 'solve a problem'.

Fortify...I don't know what the heck they were thinking with this change, but I don't think it did what they 'thought' (and I use that term loosely here) it would do.

I had really bad time first two weeks into the league playing chars with 1 layer of defense, was it armour or evasion.
In 3.16 to have decent char, you have to build multiple layers, which means either block + armour or SS + evasion or whatever. Has to be at least 2 safety nets.
Having char just with armour is like it's naked. And it is, open to all damage incoming.

So after 750 deaths and frustration on 3 chars combined, i've reworked from ground up one of my own. In the end it came out great.

Chaos res is also not optional anymore. 75% is highly recommended to have.

Melee is in bad place atm sadly. Needs serious rework and they prob know that by now. Without Molten Shell up, non block melee is no go. So staves are the way to go for 2H.

Btw what did you expect from Divine Shield with 200es?

ps
I've tried on one char playing 7 Endurances + Transcendence. Well, that went badly. Whatever you say about armour, you simply can't play non damage avoidance melee without it. Mobs will run you over with lots of "small" hits which armour mitigates completely and Endurances only partialy.

Thanks for the excellent post.

In my view, your post (like many others) is a symptom of a deeper, more troubling problem, namely, that GGG consistently demonstrates with recent leagues (and with Chris' interview) a very poor understanding of their own game. They typically misidentify problems and/or provide inadequate solutions, while not grasping and tackling other glaring problems.

They have adopted a "radio silence" posture too more for several weeks, which is not only in direct contradiction to their stated commitment to better communication, but is also telling of their seeming inability to know what to do with their game.

In a word, I believe GGG is deeply confused and uncertain about their own game. And worse, actually ignorant of its deeper mechanisms and inner logic of play.

I spent yesterday playing Last Epoch as a change, for the first time in months, and the difference in player experience is vast. What I don't have in LE is the ever present frustration that PoE provides, nor does it have the sense of being "a confused game in search of a clarity of direction". Sure, it is less complex, but it is just so much more pleasurable to play, with regards to every aspect relative to poe - crafting, stability (zero crashes in 12 hours), plot, cause of death (explained in huge clear font the moment you die!!), progression, and so on.

I have played poe for 4 years and done everything in the game, but I am less and less inclined to play it now. Which is so sad, given it has/had such potential.

great to see the post gaining traction.

starting from the back:

"

Btw what did you expect from Divine Shield with 200es?

i wanted to check the ES regen values on char screen. nothing more. regen is an absolute value, not derived from ES total. i just wanted to see how much is Armour actually worth

the result? not much. with ~50k Armour, the values seen during mapping were 200-300 ES regen. it means that in red, rolled maps or 200+ delve you are barely hit by phys damage (on a build that is getting hit a lot - 2h 0 block, 0 EV melee). the only moments when that value reached 1000+ was in boss encounters like Summit boss jumping on my head or cases like that

note: Divine Shield is for block builds. for some bizzare reason it works with block. and it is INSANE with block btw. like game-breaking insane.

"

Whatever you say about armour, you simply can't play non damage avoidance melee without it. Mobs will run you over with lots of "small" hits which armour mitigates completely and Endurances only partialy.

i kinda dont agree here. twice.

first - i highly doubt phys damage is that big of a threat, it doesnt feel like it. phys DEGENS - true. but hits? hardly esp in endgame boss encounters where majority of phys damage is converted

second - ive made a char precisely like the one you describe: zero avoidance.

3800 life/4800 ES + 0.71s ES recharge start occultist with Wicked Ward. i have 300 AR, ~400 EV, 24% attack block from the shield and.. thats it. as long as i make sure not rush like a clown - it is perfectly fine for endgame. some bosses attack so slowly that Recharge kicks in between hits.. i can tank regular Sirus attack indefinitely.

you can always bring Granite/Jade. and boost your AR to ~4000 and that is 100% enough for mapping. in fights like Sirus/Maven you dont need AR/EV anyway, these are dps checks + positional fights


problem for armour characters and characters in general is elemental damage and ailments. IMO Purity of Elements gives FAR MORE than Determination when it comes to real life survivability. Shock/Brittle MURDERS players. values on these two are obscene - yet you have no clue you just got shocked because that icon blinks for ~.1s and you die. Ive actually said 'f. this' and just slapped P of Elements on my latest build. 50% reservation seems high price but it turns out to be perfectly worth it due to both ALL elemental ailment immunity and MUCH easier gearing.



i bet 3.17 will nerf 'gain charges when hit' to something laughable and useless like '14% chance to gain 2 charges when hit'. because it is actually easier than making AR from gear a sensible choice.

but how can it be sensible when %AR/+AR is a prefix competing with 10% life, +curse or stuff like that? noone will drop this to get 400 more base AR when stupid flask gives 1500 and you can still get 10s of thousands via Stubborn Student stacking etc etc