Time to rethink the vision?

"

vio wrote:

achievements cease to be achievements when you got what you wanted. that's the reason people quit after the game somehow gave them what they want.
if they quit cause the grind took so long they better play less strenious games.


also, mageblood invalidates builds like headhunter does. so it's not a good idea to have it too common.
(invalidate: builds only work with those items).

These are items. When did they suddenly become achievements? Furthermore, what do achievements even mean when they're not obtained by skill, but by luck? A real achievement is getting cutting edge achievement in WoW, something that only 1-3% of the raiding population ever reaches, but 100% of that achievement is dependent on skill, not luck. Furthermore, people still continue to play that game after that achievement, so what about PoE's "achievement" of headhunter would make somebody quit?

Headhunter is terrible for bossing builds and slower builds. Torrent's Reclamation is arguably better for certain minion builds, 100% better on boss fights than headhunter.

Furthermore, why is achievement your substitute for fun in this game? And why does the fun of other players need to be lessened for the sake of other's achievements? That's exactly the case when they balance things for trade.

Just listed 9 leagues where build-enabling chase items were just cheap (between 1c and 10ex) and still the game was becoming more and more popular.

I really don't think that cheaper chase items do any harm except MAYBE for less revenue for tencent. This and having a pandemic granting much bigger playerbase which somehow doesn't seem to keep playing a game that lets you put months into are the only big things that changed I think.

Also almost all uniques devalued to be worth absolutely nothing anymore due to nerfs or game changes that made them irrelevant. I don't see why this would be a problem - nobody plays standard anyway.

People will not play X amounts of weeks if it is not fun for them... You can't just make grinding longer without any consequences. People will just stop grinding if the grinding is not fun (=new) by itself.



Yes it is an achievement in the way that it's much more likely not to drop a very rare item, but managing to get enough currency for it by farming 1000 maps in 1 month. So the achievement is always: You successfully farmed 1000 maps in 1 month making you able to afford almost any 1 item you want.

"

Tsokushin wrote:

These are items. When did they suddenly become achievements?

i mainly play for getting my hands on certain items which enable me to do difficult content.
eventually playing this content is a achievement for me.

"

Tsokushin wrote:

what do achievements even mean when they're not obtained by skill, but by luck?

most items are aquired by skill: trading skills: you won't get far in poe if you don't know the worth of items you sell.

getting those items to sell also requires skill, either by getting them from the market or survive in juiced up endgame areas long enough to farm them.

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Tsokushin wrote:

people still continue to play that game after that achievement, so what about PoE's "achievement" of headhunter would make somebody quit?

you don't quit immediately after you got what you wanted but it will be boring fast if there is no challenge anymore in the game for you.

thing is:
* if your achievement doesn't trivialise the game it's not really a chase item
* if your achievement trivialises the game, it kills your motivation

the best outcome is if they only trivialise certain parts of the game.

"

Tsokushin wrote:

Furthermore, why is achievement your substitute for fun in this game?

i have the most fun by feeling progress, having small and multiple goals and achieving them provide for that.

"

Tsokushin wrote:

And why does the fun of other players need to be lessened for the sake of other's achievements? That's exactly the case when they balance things for trade.

because it's a multiplayer game. single player games don't need to take care of that.
if a item is too common, it spoils the progress of other players by getting too cheap.

the trick is to get droprates to the point that item prices aren't too expensive (to not discourage players to farm for them) or too cheap.

in general, it would be much more interesting if trading was more limited cause that would make this balancing process easier.

like: "only corrupted items can change their owners".

"

vio wrote:

i mainly play for getting my hands on certain items which enable me to do difficult content.
eventually playing this content is a achievement for me.

If this is the case, what do you say to the people who would claim you don't need hh/mageblood/etc to complete the game?

"

most items are aquired by skill: trading skills: you won't get far in poe if you don't know the worth of items you sell.

The mirror I linked was one of 2 that dropped for me in a single league. I bought that headhunter with the proceeds of selling one of them. Where was the skill in that?

"

getting those items to sell also requires skill, either by getting them from the market or survive in juiced up endgame areas long enough to farm them.

So, in the end, the measure of skill for you is not in designing your build, understanding game mechanics to make that build successful, but trading and buying your item?

How would any of that change if things weren't balanced for trade? Also, why wouldn't you shift your attention to the global stock market where such things actually come with real gain?

"

you don't quit immediately after you got what you wanted but it will be boring fast if there is no challenge anymore in the game for you.

Let me ask you a simple question. All those people that quit the league this early in. Did they quit because they couldn't get what they wanted or did they quit because the game gave them quickly what they wanted?

"

thing is:
* if your achievement doesn't trivialise the game it's not really a chase item
* if your achievement trivialises the game, it kills your motivation

the best outcome is if they only trivialise certain parts of the game.

You've completely lost me here because you're still putting forth the notion that items are achievements. Take all the time you need for this question. Can you explain to me, in precise detail, why are items the achievement for your rather than the means to achieve things in this game?

"

i have the most fun by feeling progress, having small and multiple goals and achieving them provide for that.

How can this be true if something as expensive as a mageblood is your achievement? You have racing available, where even top winners aren't using these items, and such races are big achievements. Where is this mixup between items and achievement?

"

because it's a multiplayer game. single player games don't need to take care of that.
if a item is too common, it spoils the progress of other players by getting too cheap.

the trick is to get droprates to the point that item prices aren't too expensive (to not discourage players to farm for them) or too cheap.

in general, it would be much more interesting if trading was more limited cause that would make this balancing process easier.

like: "only corrupted items can change their owners".

Ignoring the fact that this is mostly a single player game for a multitude of the people that play, and your comments on trading aside, the only times most people interact with each other is trade and global chat. There are a few people running party builds for the sake of farming currency, yes, but they're the scant, scant minority. Much of the game that gets marketed, such as builds, farming techniques, and progression are done so under the implied condition of doing so alone.

Now, I could give you a more comprehensive response, but I'd like your precise answers to these real quick.

1)The mirror I linked was one of 2 that dropped for me in a single league. I bought that headhunter with the proceeds of selling one of them. Where was the skill in that?

2)All those people that quit the league this early in. Did they quit because they couldn't get what they wanted or did they quit because the game gave them quickly what they wanted?

3)Can you explain to me, in precise detail, why are items the achievement for your rather than the tools to achieve things in this game?

Question 3 comes with a huge implication. What do you think of builds that accomplish those things without those items?

If you want every item handed to you on a plate maybe a single player offline game is better where you can just use an item editor mod to give yourself whatever gear you want?

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MarloStanfield wrote:

If you want every item handed to you on a plate maybe a single player offline game is better where you can just use an item editor mod to give yourself whatever gear you want?

Going by player stats, a lot of people are taking that advice.

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brunowa wrote:

Sure, it would be nice if some skills were more viable, but every skill has it's place, and yes, it does change every league. This doesn't make it bad. It encourages variety.

I can't see any of your characters using any gem that is out of the loop, what are their place exactly? When do you ever use them? Variety?

I hope you're having fun with toxic rain, mate; but let's not post complete h*rsesh*te on the forums, yes?
Thanks.

"

Tsokushin wrote:

I disagree on several points, harvest allowed people to play the game as-is with trade as something there if you wished to engage with. As the game is now, trade is something you're routinely forced to engage with as you're not feasibly going to get an upgrade on your own.

As for balance, at the very top end in "aspirational content", there's far more pigeonholing than before. They've slapped in the new elemental ailments, and there's no way of cleansing them outside of a few builds that can include purity of elements or reach 100% elemental avoidance or dodge for that matter. The flask affixes don't affect them at all.

The Harvest discussion has been had 23746 times, so we just have to agree to disagree on that one.

When it comes to aspirational content... Content like that is SUPPOSED to funnel out "the weed". You're not supposed to be able to do it with every build. It's the top of the top, and wouldn't be the top of the top if every build could just walk through it. There's supposed to be pigeonholing. You ALWAYS get people feeling entitled to do everything with everything, no matter how they try to classify something.

Elemental ailments are a joke these days. Between Pantheon powers, flasks, ailment avoidance on gear, A LOT of different nodes on the tree (including several masteries), purities, 25% reservation skills (Tempest Shield/Arctic Armor) and jewels, every build should be able to handle ailments pretty easily.

nah just let it sink...

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Tsokushin wrote:

"

vio wrote:

of course they can't hand out "mage bloods" to everyone, it's not a single player game where this is without consequences. it's supposed to be a chase item.

What, pray tell, would be the negative consequences for having these items be more common? Ignoring the fact that this is flask QoL that was widely asked for and they gated its rarity so that only no-lifers could actually afford buying from trade, what use is it if nobody actually gets to use it?

infinite permanent flasks is not flask qol lol, and the instilling orbs introduced last league dont exist i assume?