Scourge "lose xxx life when moving to nightmare" and CI

Can you consider rebalancing this?

A lot of work was done with map mods in the past so that there weren't any absolute hard counters to particular builds (immunities, introduction of hexproof and such) but this sticks out like a sore thumb.

The only way to work around it is to refund the passive anytime you want to do one of these maps, and i dont know how many CI builds run with 75% chaos resist.

By contrast, the scourge mod "lose xxx ES when moving to nightmare" absolutely nobody cares about as its completely harmless to all builds whether they use ES or not.
Last edited by Asmosis#7365 on Nov 4, 2021, 8:36:15 AM
Last bumped on Nov 6, 2021, 7:28:16 AM
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CI has nothing to do with the issue of these scourge map modifiers being BS.

Take 12,000 or 18,000 <insert damage type> upon shifting into scourge should not be in the game.

Neither should lose 300 or 1800 life per second while in scourge.

These are beyond BS ridiculous.
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Galtrovan wrote:
CI has nothing to do with the issue of these scourge map modifiers being BS.

Take 12,000 or 18,000 <insert damage type> upon shifting into scourge should not be in the game.

Neither should lose 300 or 1800 life per second while in scourge.

These are beyond BS ridiculous.


the first 2-3 tiers of these mods are doable
- 300-600 life lose per sec (manageable with lifeflasks)
- 6000 dmg of an element when you got 75% resi is "only" 1500 dmg any build has more than that you just have to be carefull not to drop too low

the top end of these mods are deadly yes,but gues what...
you are supposed to stop scourging if the mods get too bad
its pure greed and the players own fault if he pushes it too far

its like not reading map mods + not beeing reflect immun and than complain about dieing to reflect...
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ciel289 wrote:
"
Galtrovan wrote:
CI has nothing to do with the issue of these scourge map modifiers being BS.

Take 12,000 or 18,000 <insert damage type> upon shifting into scourge should not be in the game.

Neither should lose 300 or 1800 life per second while in scourge.

These are beyond BS ridiculous.


the first 2-3 tiers of these mods are doable
- 300-600 life lose per sec (manageable with lifeflasks)
- 6000 dmg of an element when you got 75% resi is "only" 1500 dmg any build has more than that you just have to be carefull not to drop too low

the top end of these mods are deadly yes,but gues what...
you are supposed to stop scourging if the mods get too bad
its pure greed and the players own fault if he pushes it too far

its like not reading map mods + not beeing reflect immun and than complain about dieing to reflect...


lol u big fan of reflect and 1shots? how about u die every 30sec ur in map so u need calc how long ur in map its SO much fun!
what else fun?
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Last edited by TreeOfDead#4438 on Nov 4, 2021, 4:24:40 PM
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TreeOfDead wrote:
"
ciel289 wrote:
"
Galtrovan wrote:
CI has nothing to do with the issue of these scourge map modifiers being BS.

Take 12,000 or 18,000 <insert damage type> upon shifting into scourge should not be in the game.

Neither should lose 300 or 1800 life per second while in scourge.

These are beyond BS ridiculous.


the first 2-3 tiers of these mods are doable
- 300-600 life lose per sec (manageable with lifeflasks)
- 6000 dmg of an element when you got 75% resi is "only" 1500 dmg any build has more than that you just have to be carefull not to drop too low

the top end of these mods are deadly yes,but gues what...
you are supposed to stop scourging if the mods get too bad
its pure greed and the players own fault if he pushes it too far

its like not reading map mods + not beeing reflect immun and than complain about dieing to reflect...


lol u big fun of reflect and 1shots? how about u die every 30sec ur in map so u need calc how long ur in map its SO much fun!
what else fun?


i havent died to reflect in years,because i know boss encounters and can read map mods
1 shots dont really happen outside of bossfights,if you run a reasonable build with reasonable defences and avoid mapmods that counter your build

im not saying i dont die,but when i die i know why...
its either making a bad move (like flamedashing forwards for no reason) or a build that isnt "finished" (gear or level for passive points)

so explain how you'd counter this mod with CI.

The example you gave is easily countered with gear, other passives or pantheon.

FWIW i have no issue at all with the "deal 3000/6000/9000/15000" mods. Those are things you get hit with (rare/boss monsters with map mods) all the time when mapping, so should be manageable by default on a good build.

The uncounterable "lose 300 life" mod though will instant kill a whole tier of builds, at the most basic scourge map tier. The other mods arent even dangerous until you've maxed out the map for most builds.
Last edited by Asmosis#7365 on Nov 4, 2021, 11:39:59 PM
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Asmosis wrote:
so explain how you'd counter this mod with CI.

The example you gave is easily countered with gear, other passives or pantheon.

FWIW i have no issue at all with the "deal 3000/6000/9000/15000" mods. Those are things you get hit with (rare/boss monsters with map mods) all the time when mapping, so should be manageable by default on a good build.

The uncounterable "lose 300 life" mod though will instant kill a whole tier of builds, at the most basic scourge map tier. The other mods arent even dangerous until you've maxed out the map for most builds.


ya mb,i responded to the 2nd post

you are right with the ci thing (same can be said for the flat -max life)
it seems to be a hard counter and this is bad
maybe these degen mods should stop at 1 hp/es like RF does

hard counters and immunitys just arent good designs (unless its on the players side, like immun to bleed etc)
the first tier of a mod on a map simply shouldnt be a hardcounter,because the only option to avoid this is to not interact with the league mechanic at all

so yes,the interaction with ci should be be looked at and changed
the other cases were ppl just push it too far should stay the same
Hope they really re-balance this mod.

As far as I could see no other mod is a hard-counter to any builds on level 1. For all other mods you can keep track of the progression of these mods and pull the map out before it becomes impossible for your char.

But with this mod you can have Tier9 corrupted map where you carefully kept track of all mods to be doable for you char. Than BOOM on Tier10 it becomes bricked and instead of engaging with league content you can engage with trading, even worse for SSF chars.

So even through I like scourge content as well as highly corrupted maps from the crucible, I pull em out at t3-4 because playing the Russian roulette for 10 Rounds with (just assumed) 5% means that 40% of the time your map get bricked.
Well i'm playing a low life build. I have 135 unreserved life, 7566 es and 135 unreserved Mana.

The mod " lose x life per sec in nightmare" means insta death for me.

The mod " lose x ES per sec in nightmare" means as soon as i enter nightmare i Can get instakilled too.

Those mods have Been on each Map i've scourge so far Aka around 30 maps. I had to sell or vendor them and this leads me to simply drop the whole league mechanic as scourging items is trash. Two weeks in the league and already knowing because or the way i choosed to build my chat i'm cast away from the one and only rewarding part if the league. Just because Somewhere, some Lunatic made a very poor design decision without thinking one sec to its consequences. Good job hits, you dis it again!
Last edited by Ashandaar#3743 on Nov 6, 2021, 6:01:44 AM
You can easily counter the "lose 300 ES per second" in a variety of ways.

Life/ES regen
Life/ES on hit
Life/ES leech
Flasks

and just convert the life to ES via something if needed. It only takes a few passive points or swapping some gear to accomplish that.

Just a sulfur flask is sufficient to offset the 300 ES loss with 7500 total. You can use the unique one for zealots oath too if your nowhere near it on the skill tree.

I've always found (and still do with the buffs) ES recovery to be entirely unreliable as a defensive measure because GGG love flooding arenas with large degen or other bullet hell style things you can't avoid, meaning you often don't get 4 seconds to get it started, let alone complete.

I've got ~5k ES, but 800-1100 regen so can do this map and scourge it a a few times, but its pretty clear both mods were put in to funnel these maps to the meta builds.

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