"Money" exchange rate at shops needs work

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Kazeto wrote:

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Antistes wrote:

you are not suppose to sell money.

There is no "money" at all in this game. He was talking about the currency items and used the term "money" off-handedly.

Do people even read the threads they post to...?

i used the word money because the OP used it, everybody knows it's the currency items, duh

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Apathist wrote:

So, I'm fine with all that, even the part about unequal trades. If you read the first post in this topic, all I complained about was how unequal some of the trades are.

And orb drops are ace and all, but what I'm actually put out by is that it seems pointless identifying things. Think about this: I sell unid'd blue items for (usually) 2 transmute shards, vs, say ~5 alteration shards for id'd items. That's great, I get more for the id'd items...

But wait, that's about 4 id'd items per alteration orb, which is "worth" 4 wisdom scrolls... but I've spent 4 scrolls of wisdom to id the 4 items in the first place... so I've made a net gain of zero from those items. (You can argue that I shouldn't sell the alteration orb, but I'm always short of wisdom scrolls, so I need to get them somehow)

On the other hand, if I sell unid'd items, I get the 2 transmute shards and it has cost me nothing, so net gain.

But I'm waiting for someone show me where that analysis is wrong...

Alterations reroll blues. Transmutes turn white to blue.
These actually have a huge difference in value at end game.
As well, the number of alteration shards you get back from an identified blue varies according to the level of the prefix/suffix. Un-identified blues will only ever give you two transmute shards.

When you begin to understand the loot drop minigame, you realize what is efficient to pick up and vendor, and what to leave on the ground. Before you hit level 30, you'll be swimming in wisdom scrolls, so their scarcity that feels so prevalent at the start of the game becomes a non-issue.

I know you state you understand the 'crazy' exchange rates of the vendors, but to be clear, the exchange rates the NPC vendors give on orbs is simply a convenience feature, and a lot of thought was put into the pricing and availability of orbs on the vendor screen. This is all part of the currency/crafting mini-game, which forms one facet of the many mechanics that makes Path of Exile so appealing to many of us.

The only way to allow the economy to self-stabilize is to minimize the ability of people to arbitrage currency through an exchequer that has fixed exchange rates (like the NPC vendors) because the orbs relative worth is a function of their supply (drop rate) and demand (amount of utility to players), and the current system is designed to allow the players themselves to set the exchange rate (find our own 'gold standard'). The whole concept of the economy in Path of Exile is fascinating. If you are interested in learning more, do a search for older posts using words like gold and fiat currency. As an ex-finance guy who minored in economics, I really, really appreciate the approach GGG took with the economy in this game, and a strong reason why I chose to support them.

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Garr0t wrote:

The only way to allow the economy to self-stabilize is to minimize the ability of people to arbitrage currency through an exchequer that has fixed exchange rates (like the NPC vendors) because the orbs relative worth is a function of their supply (drop rate) and demand (amount of utility to players), and the current system is designed to allow the players themselves to set the exchange rate (find our own 'gold standard'). The whole concept of the economy in Path of Exile is fascinating. If you are interested in learning more, do a search for older posts using words like gold and fiat currency. As an ex-finance guy who minored in economics, I really, really appreciate the approach GGG took with the economy in this game, and a strong reason why I chose to support them.

This sums up everything I would want to say, much better than I would have said it. Almost brings a tear to my eye :) The way the economy functions now is (imo) one of the two main draws to PoE; the other being build design theory. To change it such that vendors offer equal exchange (something that traditionally is never the case in any RPG, I might add) would be arbitrary to say the least.

To Apathist: You are assuming that the basic idea of gaining or losing wealth is determined by a net expenditure of wisdom scrolls. You sell rares and lose wisdom scrolls, therefore you must be losing wealth, correct? Not quite. Each currency item is uniquely and inherently valuable in their own way, and each plays a part in a greater scheme. In this case the expenditure of Wisdom Scrolls results in a net gain because they allow you to craft orbs that are highly valuable to other players. All of this is possible because there is an unequal exchange at the vendor; they don't establish a base value for an orb, supply and demand, and the whims of the player market does. All the vendors do is facilitate liquidity in the economy (which allows for economic mobility).

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Garr0t wrote:

The only way to allow the economy to self-stabilize is to minimize the ability of people to arbitrage currency through an exchequer that has fixed exchange rates (like the NPC vendors) because the orbs relative worth is a function of their supply (drop rate) and demand (amount of utility to players), and the current system is designed to allow the players themselves to set the exchange rate (find our own 'gold standard'). The whole concept of the economy in Path of Exile is fascinating. If you are interested in learning more, do a search for older posts using words like gold and fiat currency. As an ex-finance guy who minored in economics, I really, really appreciate the approach GGG took with the economy in this game, and a strong reason why I chose to support them.

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CanHasPants wrote:

To Apathist: You are assuming that the basic idea of gaining or losing wealth is determined by a net expenditure of wisdom scrolls. You sell rares and lose wisdom scrolls, therefore you must be losing wealth, correct? Not quite. Each currency item is uniquely and inherently valuable in their own way, and each plays a part in a greater scheme. In this case the expenditure of Wisdom Scrolls results in a net gain because they allow you to craft orbs that are highly valuable to other players. All of this is possible because there is an unequal exchange at the vendor; they don't establish a base value for an orb, supply and demand, and the whims of the player market does. All the vendors do is facilitate liquidity in the economy (which allows for economic mobility).

That's great, guys. Thanks for the in depth explanation. But I do still have one question: Isn't all that predicated on the existence of a broad, accessible marketplace? *Please*, correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think PoE has anything like that (like D3's action house), and all I've seen is people spamming the trade channel, which then must be followed up by 1:1 trading.

So, if that is all that's available, then I can't rely on being able to trade as needed, so I'm stuck making value assessments based on what I have, and what I know I can get for it (ie. from the vendors), right?

Not quite, the point is that those rares have more value to other players than they do to the vendors. This all requires more work on your behalf, to push your sales on the trade channel, or negotiate bids on the forums. Because this requires work, most rares are worth vendoring for alts, but you'll learn to recognize when a combination of item level, mods, sockets, or links have enough value to warrant selling. It just takes some time and effort to learn the whims of the player economy, and how much a particular mod, or sockets/links are worth to other players.

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Apathist wrote:

...I do still have one question: Isn't all that predicated on the existence of a broad, accessible marketplace? *Please*, correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think PoE has anything like that (like D3's action house), and all I've seen is people spamming the trade channel, which then must be followed up by 1:1 trading.

Ha ha! Astute observation! Yes, it has been remarked by GGG that they have plans in the works to allow trading through the website(!), as well as allowing players to purchase publicly visible stash tabs to facilitate setting up player vendor shops and the like to facilitate the barter and trade that is the foundation of the economic system. It's coming. =)