Can we have a final word on Shape of Storm vs Non-damage aliment effect
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It starts from a casual talk with my friend and ends up as almost a "physical fight" LOL
To make it simple: Does the "Shocks from your Hits always increase Damage taken by at least 15%" of Elementalist "Shape of Storm" benefit from the Non-damage aliment effect such as the other line in the same nod "25% more Effect of Lightning Ailments you inflict with Hits if the highest Damage Type is Lightning" In another word, if I have "Shape of Storm" and the highest damage is lightning (pretty low, lower than the 15% effect threshold), my final shock effect would be 15% or higher (count 25% more effect of Lightning Ailments) Some background information: 1. I checked the discussion before, Mark used to confirm back to the time that we have Beacon of Ruin nod. He said with 20% shock effect at least add with 20% of non-damage aliment effect, the result is 24% shock effect which means that it does benefit from the non-damage aliment effect. URL: https://www.reddit.com/r/pathofexile/comments/81b41p/ggg_question_about_elementalist_beacon_of_ruin/dv3emop?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3 2. Due to the WIKI it seems like another story: Modifiers to shock effect, such as X% increased Effect of Shock, apply to the effect of the shock before the minimum or maximum effect is enforced. 3. The aliment calculation changed in 3.9, even there is no mechanism change in the patch note but still has concern whether there is any further change It would be really appreciated if there is official confirmation on this Last edited by leniusxue on Apr 10, 2021, 12:24:53 AM Last bumped on Apr 10, 2021, 9:19:53 AM
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As I understood it using the minimum shock node for years any modifiers to shock effectiveness applied to the minimum shock, so if you had 20% guaranteed shock with 150% effectiveness either from shock or non-damaging ailment effect you'd always have a max value shock.
so if your highest damage value is lightning, but your shock effectiveness is 0 and you only qualify for the minimum shock you end up with 15 * 1.25 > 18.75 shock. |
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I think I understand OP: There are shades of doubt.
Wiki states that the "increased/more shock effect" applies when calculating whether the 5% threshold is reached or not. if we take Wiki and its reference to the letter, then the minimum 15% should disregard any bonus on shock's effectiveness, since Shaper of Storm actually changes the result of that formula, which incudes the calculation for increased/more shock effect. Draegnarrr's reasoning is actually valid in cases where shock is applied without dealing hits - for example, via Summon Skitterbots and Shocking Ground.
Long version on how Shaper of Storm work
"Increase effect of shock/non-damaging (elemental) ailments" acts as a multiplier to the base effect of that shock. You shock's base effect is usually determined by a certain formula, but the one you have quoted is the simplified version. It usually is "shock-capable damage / enemy's ailment threshold", where:
* Shock-capable damage means a damage that can inflict shock (this includes damages that are made able to shock via an equipment, like Chaos with Voltaxic Rift, or ability, like Everything with Shaper of Storm) * enemy's ailment threshold is 100% of the enemy's life, but we have GGG's confirmation that it is "lower" on certain endgame boss. Of course they won't tell us the exact %, but wikia states at least for A8 Sirus it should be 35% of his base life The actual formula, as stated in wiki, is: 0.5 * (D/T)^0.4 * (1+M) Where * D is the shock-capable damage * T is the enemy's ailment threshold * M is the sum of all "increase effect of shock/non damaging (elemental) ailments). This value is the multiplied by any source of "more effect of shock/non damaging (elemental) ailments" if such a thing exists There was a time, as you stated, where the formula changed. In the beginning it had a fixed effect, stacked, and the formula calculated the shock's duration. Then the stacks were reduced to 3, then again they revamped it such so that it was no longer cumulative, had a fixed base duration but the formula scaled the effect. And now we have an hybridization of all of those: 1 shock, duration and magnitude are calculated by formula. The harder you hit, the stronger the shock and the longer the effect. There is still a base rule for shock and freeze, in which that the ailment must have a minimum magnitude in order to apply: once, it was a duration of at least 0.3 seconds, now it's an effect of at least 5%. This means that a shocking hit will always attempt to inflict shock, but if the result of that formula is below 5%, then the shock is not applied. Note how the formula cares about the Increase Effect of shock: this means that you effectively need to deal less damage in order to reach a Minimum shock effect on an enemy. This comes useful if you can't afford to invest into a lot of lightning damage, or wish to shock even the more rotund enemy. Now, how does Shaper of Storm interacts with this formula: > "All damages can shock" is obvious: Your physical, fire, cold and chaos damage can shock, and they will work for the sake of calculating the D value > "Your hits always shock" is also obvious: whether they are crit or not, or whatever is your chance to shock, all of your hits will try to deliver at shock. Combined with the above modifier, you always shock your enemy > "Shock from your hits always increase damage taken by at least 15%". This means that, should the formula above yield a value lower than 15% - or even the minimum 5% - the Shock magnitude will be changed to 15% Guess the only way to settle this would be testing in PVP... provided PVP scaling does not alter the result. Much. | |
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Yeah PvP testing would be the only way to get a real answer aside from the devs, i feel like there was a dev answer about the original elementalist version when it came out but i can't find it atm.
I will say that the Wiki doesn't have a citation for the effectiveness applying first but the maths is messy if it doesn't. Edit: Found it its just further down on the thread OP listed lmao https://www.reddit.com/r/pathofexile/comments/81b41p/ggg_question_about_elementalist_beacon_of_ruin/dv3emop/ magnitude has to be determined before modifiers can apply so it works as I indicated Last edited by Draegnarrr on Apr 10, 2021, 3:19:17 AM
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Alright, as Mark_GGG stated, then, the "Fixed SHock Value" logic of Lightning Ground and Skitterbots kicks in when talking about effects that grants a minimum shock/chill/non-damaging effect.
Thank you very much for confirming it, I hope wiki can be updated accordingly... |
