For me, Archmage kills caster- and Warcries kill melee-diversity.

You don't get to decide what i or anyone else that isn't you finds fun or not, sorry. And it's kinda ridiculous that you think you can. Again, if you don't like those skills that's perfectly fine different people, different tastes. But you aren't everyone and the game is made to appeal to different kinds of people not just you.

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jsuslak313 wrote:

@raics: I wholeheartedly agree that GGG needs to look at all the skills and THROW OUT the skills that are total garbage like cleave/sweep and other skills that just have never been touched and do nothing in the game. I am not saying there aren't skills like this! I'm only saying there are far more options than people tend to try because they follow the top builds on poe ninja or streams.

There will never be a game like this where every skill is perfectly balanced. There will ALWAYS be skills that do the job better in one way or another. That isn't something that will ever be fixed.

Sure, I agree there are more skills that can be used if you really want to, but I don't think it's good they're being carried by some go-to broken setups, because the moment you take away the training wheels they will crash and burn. So, if the gap between skills is high you have a longterm problem, you can't nerf strong tools that affect skills globally when top tier ones get too powerful, because you'll render the weaker ones unusable.

Near-perfect balance is hard, but nobody's really asking for that, in most cases we aren't talking about exotic interactions that make some skills powerful and others weak. It's simple numbers - damage, coverage and speed, anyone can play with those until they hit something that feels good.

@ion: I think your last post completely validated Baharoth's point.

Almost everything you said is subjective to YOU personally. Some builds are not fun for YOU. Some people hate playing minion builds because its a 1 button playstyle and auto clears. I happen to love them. Some people LOVE playing DoT poison builds like viper/pestilent/etc. I happen to HATE them so I don't play them.

This does NOT make those skills garbage. It just makes the garbage for YOU. So don't play them!

I have made many SRS minion builds. Do they perform as well as ANY OTHER minion build, not even close! Was it fun to theory craft and try to make it work to the best of its ability? Yes! Will I try to build it again? I probably will. Does that mean the skill deserves to be trashed because it performs worse with similar investment to other builds of the same type? No.

NONE OF THIS IS SAYING there aren't complete trash skills. Of course there are! And certain nerfs have completely killed certain popular builds (not many Winter Orb players anymore...). And that stinks. But there are soooooo many options and just because one skill costs less or one skill doesn't fit your personal playstyle doesn't mean someone else finds it to be MORE smooth or MORE fun to play.

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raics wrote:

So, if the gap between skills is high you have a longterm problem, you can't nerf strong tools that affect skills globally when top tier ones get too powerful, because you'll render the weaker ones unusable.

Truth got told here.

One major problem of a lot of people not just in this forum but in RL is that they are shortsighted and lack longterm vision. They think its fun to do snowflake builds and thats fine but once the next counterbalance content patch rolls out and buffs monster HP with a facor of 3 then we will see that those suck skills that were weak before will bite the dust. No matter how "fun" they seemed for a few.

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raics wrote:

Near-perfect balance is hard, but nobody's really asking for that, in most cases we aren't talking about exotic interactions that make some skills powerful and others weak. It's simple numbers - damage, coverage and speed, anyone can play with those until they hit something that feels good.

I think that's where you are wrong. The bad viability of most skills doesn't come from numbers, at least not primarily. Heavy Strike and Lightning Tendrils both have pretty decent numbers but are considered trash because of their mechanics. Same for most other skills. You can't even get close to decent balance by just changing some numbers around. You'd have to change the mechanics. Make all strike skills able to move while attacking and give them inherent AC and Melee Splash then we might get a bit closer to a point where they would be widely considered comparable to Cyclone. But at the unfortunate price that now we have several Cyclone skills in the game, just with different names. I mean where do you think current cyclone would be meta wise if it wasn't for the move while channeling gimmick? Rock bottom most likely. The skills numbers aren't that fancy to begin with since 3.7 nerfs.

@raics: This is where I fundamentally disagree. I DON'T think there is a huge gap between many of the skills. I think its primarily the PLAYER that thinks there is a huge gap because they fall into patterns that they personally enjoy. That's not to say that there can be a huge difference in terms of currency or gear investment but that's a whole extra side of PoE that people LOVE. Some people play solely to craft better and better items. Not every build has to be a league-starter.

I do agree with Baharoth, the primary reason for a "bad" skill that should be trashed is due to play mechanics and NOT numbers. Play mechanic is also somewhat determined by league/game content as well. There was a time when they nerfed the original Cast on Crit skill with a CD that made it unplayable. THAT was a huge issue which happily got fixed and some existing skills still have problems like that which I hope GGG will either address or just trash. But the vast majority of skills are usable and feel good to certain players. Not every skill can appeal to every player and it is certainly not just about playing with numbers and clear. People have different playstyles.

For example, there are certain skills and builds that require an extremely active playstyle: laying down totems, self casting curses, using 3-4 different skills, gem swaps, etc. People LOVE playing those types of builds. Then you have the other extreme: a build that utilizes fully automated functions, and reduces the gameplay down to a single skill cast. People LOVE playing those types of builds. It is extremely rare to find a person that LOVES both. And it has nothing to do with numbers, clear speed, etc.

someone (me included) might STILL choose a single button build over an active build even if it does 1/4 of the damage. Or if it costs 4x less.

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jsuslak313 wrote:

I do agree with Baharoth, the primary reason for a "bad" skill that should be trashed is due to play mechanics and NOT numbers.

let us try the 'numbers way' first, ok?

because it IS about the numbers. Ground Slam had 0.0 usage since dinosaurs, got to .1% with slam rework but now is at 9%..

what had changed? NUMBERS. Call of Steel (unexpected and stupid) interaction FINALLY gave that skill numbers. it is the same skill, the same coverage, late 90's sound effect, visual. it is the same skill. but it got its numbers 'tweaked' to eleven

(best part: Call of Ground Slam numbers are finally around where mid-level casters are. it is this bad)


heavy strike is dogshit mechanics wise (single target, knockback, themed around useless stuns) and that would be fine - pestilent strike is similar. difference? Pestilent Strike has numbers. numbers that are so good it can absorb hit from slotting melee splash (you dont actually need it but it is highly advisable)

the list goes on. problem of these skills is, was and most likely is going to be NUMBERS. ffs why people use abyssus? to fix numbers. in fact it is a good measuring stick - strike skills should do abyssus-level damage WITHOUT it. that would make them 'worthwhile' to use. not best, not most enjoyable but good at something.

right now bladestorm and heavy strike share similar effective damage output - yet heavy strike needs to fix TWO issues before it can even be used. no matter how you spin it, mechanics or magic - it is the shitty numbers that most melee skills are lacking

the disparity goes deeper - some skills have 'more damage' enchants, some dont. if it happens that already good skill has 'more damage' type of enchant it makes bad situation worse. GGG assigned good/bad enchants at random, without any thought put into it. given that an enchant can vary from 'extra bladestorm' (33% more damage) to '40% increased damage' (3-4% more).. these discrepancies are really difficult to ignore, even if you are just playing for fun

at some point youll face your Aul at depth 290 with extra health, enfeeble and chilled ground and youll notice the difference

it is NOT cosmetic.

btw - OP was about building for effectiveness, not about style nor fun. just a reminder.

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jsuslak313 wrote:

I play a reckoning build every single league including this one and I easily get 10-20 million dps in a good reckoning specific build. Plus you can pair reckoning with flicker, cyclone, double strike, etc. Yes, its basically only usable as a Gladiator skill. Unkillable, lazy, and amazing still in 3.12.

Could you share the PoB? I would like to try good Reckoning build!

I would also agree on your explanation why doesn't everyone play the top build/skill.
Things feel different, especially to newer players or ones that haven't experienced many skills and have been focusing on few.

There is also roll play element. Sometimes i feel like a fire casting witch, sometimes as a warrior/rogue and sometimes i'm a swift Deadeye aiming for headshots ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ .

Veterans or people that play too much are more prone to experiencing the game as cold numbers flashing...

Haven't played Archmage but Slams are slow in general so i guess they are compensated for that with damage.

Good topic, i enjoy reading it.

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sidtherat wrote:

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jsuslak313 wrote:

I do agree with Baharoth, the primary reason for a "bad" skill that should be trashed is due to play mechanics and NOT numbers.

let us try the 'numbers way' first, ok?

because it IS about the numbers. Ground Slam had 0.0 usage since dinosaurs, got to .1% with slam rework but now is at 9%..

what had changed? NUMBERS. Call of Steel (unexpected and stupid) interaction FINALLY gave that skill numbers. it is the same skill, the same coverage, late 90's sound effect, visual. it is the same skill. but it got its numbers 'tweaked' to eleven

(best part: Call of Ground Slam numbers are finally around where mid-level casters are. it is this bad)


heavy strike is dogshit mechanics wise (single target, knockback, themed around useless stuns) and that would be fine - pestilent strike is similar. difference? Pestilent Strike has numbers. numbers that are so good it can absorb hit from slotting melee splash (you dont actually need it but it is highly advisable)

Um, are you really comparing Pestilent with Heavy Strike and you say it's just numbers?

Pestilent doesn't need splash at all, it has build in explosion.

Maybe you thought Viper Strike? On that i could agree. VS has enough juice that you can go thru endgame on a 5L damage + Melee Splash gem. Hell, even on 4L damage + Splash + AC with good gear.