Can we talk about level design and landmarks?

I was thinking last night, err I drifted off into slumber, about what I recall of my beloved from a past life: Diablo 2.

What came to mind were iconic locations in the game's level design. The Countess's lair. The Burial Grounds. Tristram. The Barracks. The 4th floor beneath the Catacombs. The Arcane Sanctuary. The Travincal. The third floor of the Durance of Hate. The River of Flame waypoint. The Chaos Sanctuary. Shenk's location in the Bloody Foothills. Pindleskin's residence outside of Nihlathak's temple. The Ancients. The Throne of Destruction. The Worldstone Chamber.


Then I tried to come up with similar locations from PoE, and..... I couldnt. I just couldnt. Everything from PoE just seems like a massive collection of haphazard, randomized paths and open areas.

What would have possibly come to mind? Certainly not the many randomized map skins that comprise the end game content. Certainly not the massive maze of paths on the final floor of Lunaris Temple. Certainly not Gravicius's randomly placed tent in the Barracks.

It occurs to me that in contrast to PoE, D2 had many, many landmarks and unique locations throughout the course of the game. There were locations where I actually knew where I was once I entered the vicinity. In PoE I almost never know where I am. I enter an area, and I pick a direction and hope for the best. It doesnt matter how many times I have explored that very location, even on that very character in that very difficulty. It doesnt matter even if I know exactly where I want to go. All I can do is hope that my destination isnt the last place I happen to explore.


This brings me to the point of this thread: does randomness really increase replayability as GGG has suggested? I personally dont feel more inclined to play through the game again just because I have very little idea as to where most things are in relation to my current location.

Dont misunderstand, randomized map generation/level design is very fitting for certain areas. I just ask that there are a few basic principles of various areas that the player can orient themselves with. Would it really be so horrible if the western forest were always to the west of the Dark Forest? Would it really be so bad if the path to Piety on level 3 of Lunaris Temple were familiar every time you went through it?

I want to be endeared to the design of Wraeclast, but no matter how many times I traverse its fields and roads, I feel like a stranger.

Thoughts?

One reason for the current design is to dissuade bots.

I do see your point though, and am reminiscing right now :)

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Josephoenix wrote:

One reason for the current design is to dissuade bots.

I was wondering about this, but in practice I dont really understand how this affects bots. The only thing bots need to do is kill mobs and collect loot, and no amount of randomized level design will prevent bots from finding mobs.

i agree

Bandit locations?
Hail rake?
Church entrance?
Crossroads/that unique?
waterfall 2 wp/Pyramid?
Spider lair/weavers chamber?
Fidelitas lair?
Cavern of anger/wrath to Merveil end the same too.

Most of those aren't to different from what you cite in d2. Random up until a point (or 1 of 4 or 5 layouts). Sure the compass direction of some of the maps change, but the overall randomization isn't nearly as great as you make it out to be in PoE, and there are plenty of so called landmarks.

You're not being reasonable. The bandit camps are in randomized locations within a much larger area. They constitute recognizable level design about as much as the Cairn Stones in D2. The exact same thing goes for Hailrake.

The Church entrance is insignificant because there is nothing there. It's just a location where the church begins and Fellshrine ends. It is not a destination.

This applies to pretty much every other place you listed with the exception of Fidelitas and Merveil, both of which are small and relate minimally to level design. The fact that there is a recognizable location about the size of 3 screens in the middle of a massive randomly generated level doesnt mean that the level design is at all recognizable.

When I first started A2, both in River Crossings and the forest, I found the "jungle" level design cool.
Like how you can seemlessly go through the trees and at first it seems like a vast jungle, with enemies that could come up from anywhere!

After the cove/cave look from A1 I was genuinely surprised and interested by it.


Yeah...maybe there hasn't been THAT MUCH super awesome duper level design.

I'd say Barracks is a good place though. It does have this "I'm progressing towards the ultimate palace and boss!" sense, with all the stairs and "narrow" path you take and stuff.
Yeah, I think Gravicius could have a better place to be in a fight with him that is more memorable for instance

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I would say the lack of notable waypoints in POE is more a component of art direction than level design. Wraeclast is a continent with some beaches, a few caves, a deserted city, and some temples.

What is notable about the beaches? Nothing.
What is notable about the caves? They got some flicker strike mobs.
What is notable about the deserted city? Did I mention it's deserted?
What is notable about the temples? Okay... they're getting a little better here because the temples are at least unique. But they didn't capture any "moment" to make them memorable. The easiest moment to capture is a grand entrance, but none of the temples in the game have an entrance that give you any indication that there is even a temple behind the door- it's just a door slapped on a wall. That's not memorable at all.

What I'm saying is the lack of landmarks is more a fault of the art team than it is of the random level design. But it is correctable, and they are improving. Act 3 had all the right pieces together to make some memorable moments, they just didn't quite "capture" it. They had build-up and payoff, what they were lacking was the dramatic transition that ties it all together. Act 4 I bet they will nail it.