Path of Exile 1 Gameplay Help and Discussion - Fire Penetration on Firestorm, does that work with ignite too? - Forum

" Treble wrote: Burning damage on firestorm is small because the initial hits are small. Bad setup Although I'm less concerned with what's good and more concerned with the mechanics, what 2 support gems then do you suggest in place of Chance to Ignite and Elemental Proliferation that would go good with Firestorm in a minion/fire build? I already have 2 excellent supports in Fire Penetration and Increased Duration, so what else would you use? No Faster Casting, can't support the mana. And BTW I have 6-7 burning passives, but I can refund those very easily.	Posted by PackersFTW#3100 on Mar 25, 2013, 9:22:03 PM Quote this Post
" PackersFTW wrote: Also, does any of what you said change if you were to use Flammability instead of Fire Penetration? (I'm aware of the difference between penetration and resist though.) Yes. Positive resistance and Flammability both double-dip. Penetration only single-dips because the penetration only applies to the initial hit; it doesn't apply to the DoT effect. Take 3: Under constant Level 6 Flammability. Example 1, take 3: 480 Fire damage vs 0% Fire resistance, resistance reduced to -35%, deals 648 damage, triggers ignite. Ignite is set to do 6484/3 = 864 fire damage over 4 seconds against -35% resistance, negative resistance makes it 1166.4 damage over 4 seconds, aka 291.6 damage per second. Example 2, take 3: 480 Fire damage vs 75% fire resistance, resistance reduced to 40%, does 288 damage, triggers ignite. Ignite is set to do 2884/3 = 384 fire damage over 4 seconds. Due to 40% fire resistance, it deals 172.8 damage over 4 seconds, aka 43.2 damage per second. That's 4 times as much as without Flammability, and a little over 1/4 of the damage to 0% resist monsters without Flammability. Take 4: Under constant Level 20 Flammability and Level 20 Fire Penetration. Example 1, take 4: 480 Fire damage vs 0% Fire resistance, resistance reduced to -84%, deals 883 damage, triggers ignite. Ignite is set to do 8834/3 = 1177 fire damage over 4 seconds against -49% resistance, negative resistance makes it 1755 damage over 4 seconds, aka 439 damage per second. Example 2, take 4: 480 Fire damage vs 75% fire resistance, resistance reduced to -9%, does 523 damage, triggers ignite. Ignite is set to do 5234/3 = 700 fire damage over 4 seconds. Due to 26% fire resistance, it deals 516 damage over 4 seconds, aka 129 damage per second. That's over 12 times as much as take 1, and over 5 times as much as Penetration alone. So yeah, Flammability is especially important if you're trying to light monsters on fire. Who woulda thunk? When Stephen Colbert was killed by HYDRA's Project Insight in 2014, the comedy world lost a hero. Since his life model decoy isn't up to the task, please do not mistake my performance as political discussion. I'm just doing what Steve would have wanted. Last edited by ScrotieMcB#2697 on Mar 26, 2013, 5:54:02 PM	Posted by ScrotieMcB#2697 on Mar 25, 2013, 9:40:49 PM Quote this Post
" ScrotieMcB wrote: " PackersFTW wrote: Also, does any of what you said change if you were to use Flammability instead of Fire Penetration? (I'm aware of the difference between penetration and resist though.) Yes. Positive resistance and Flammability both double-dip. Penetration only single-dips because the penetration only applies to the initial hit; it doesn't apply to the DoT effect. Take 3: Under constant Level 6 Flammability. Example 1, take 3: 480 Fire damage vs 0% Fire resistance, resistance reduced to -35%, deals 648 damage, triggers ignite. Ignite is set to do 6484/3 = 864 fire damage over 4 seconds against -35% resistance, negative resistance makes it 1166.4 damage over 4 seconds, aka 291.6 damage per second. Example 2, take 3: 480 Fire damage vs 75% fire resistance, resistance reduced to 40%, does 288 damage, triggers ignite. Ignite is set to do 2884/3 = 384 fire damage over 4 seconds. Due to 40% fire resistance, it deals 172.8 damage over 4 seconds, aka 43.2 damage per second. That's 4 times as much as without Flammability, and a little over 1/4 of the damage to 0% resist monsters without Flammability. Take 4: Under constant Level 20 Flammability and Level 20 Fire Penetration. Example 1, take 4: 480 Fire damage vs 0% Fire resistance, resistance reduced to -84%, deals 883 damage, triggers ignite. Ignite is set to do 8834/3 = 1177 fire damage over 4 seconds against -84% resistance, negative resistance makes it 2166 damage over 4 seconds, aka 542 damage per second. Example 2, take 4: 480 Fire damage vs 75% fire resistance, resistance reduced to -14%, does 547 damage, triggers ignite. Ignite is set to do 5474/3 = 730 fire damage over 4 seconds. Due to -14% fire resistance, it deals 832 damage over 4 seconds, aka 208 damage per second. That's over 20 times as much as take 1, and not quite 10 times as much as Penetration alone. So yeah, Flammability is especially important if you're trying to light monsters on fire. Who woulda thunk? But I thought you said penetration doesn't double dip and is only applied to the impact damage? In the parts of your examples (underlined), you include both the -resist and the penetration in the ignite double dip multiplication. Meaning penetrate is boosting the damage of ignite twice (once indirectly and once directly) instead of just on the initial damage. Last edited by PackersFTW#3100 on Mar 26, 2013, 3:35:14 PM	Posted by PackersFTW#3100 on Mar 26, 2013, 3:32:04 PM Quote this Post
" PackersFTW wrote: But I thought you said penetration doesn't double dip and is only applied to the impact damage? You're absolutely right. This is what you risk when you post sleep-deprived. It's correct now. When Stephen Colbert was killed by HYDRA's Project Insight in 2014, the comedy world lost a hero. Since his life model decoy isn't up to the task, please do not mistake my performance as political discussion. I'm just doing what Steve would have wanted. Last edited by ScrotieMcB#2697 on Mar 26, 2013, 5:50:09 PM	Posted by ScrotieMcB#2697 on Mar 26, 2013, 5:46:21 PM Quote this Post
" ScrotieMcB wrote: " PackersFTW wrote: Also, does any of what you said change if you were to use Flammability instead of Fire Penetration? (I'm aware of the difference between penetration and resist though.) Yes. Positive resistance and Flammability both double-dip. Penetration only single-dips because the penetration only applies to the initial hit; it doesn't apply to the DoT effect. Take 3: Under constant Level 6 Flammability. Example 1, take 3: 480 Fire damage vs 0% Fire resistance, resistance reduced to -35%, deals 648 damage, triggers ignite. Ignite is set to do 6484/3 = 864 fire damage over 4 seconds against -35% resistance, negative resistance makes it 1166.4 damage over 4 seconds, aka 291.6 damage per second. Example 2, take 3: 480 Fire damage vs 75% fire resistance, resistance reduced to 40%, does 288 damage, triggers ignite. Ignite is set to do 2884/3 = 384 fire damage over 4 seconds. Due to 40% fire resistance, it deals 172.8 damage over 4 seconds, aka 43.2 damage per second. That's 4 times as much as without Flammability, and a little over 1/4 of the damage to 0% resist monsters without Flammability. Take 4: Under constant Level 20 Flammability and Level 20 Fire Penetration. Example 1, take 4: 480 Fire damage vs 0% Fire resistance, resistance reduced to -84%, deals 883 damage, triggers ignite. Ignite is set to do 8834/3 = 1177 fire damage over 4 seconds against -49% resistance, negative resistance makes it 1755 damage over 4 seconds, aka 439 damage per second. Example 2, take 4: 480 Fire damage vs 75% fire resistance, resistance reduced to -9%, does 523 damage, triggers ignite. Ignite is set to do 5234/3 = 700 fire damage over 4 seconds. Due to 26% fire resistance, it deals 516 damage over 4 seconds, aka 129 damage per second. That's over 12 times as much as take 1, and over 5 times as much as Penetration alone. So yeah, Flammability is especially important if you're trying to light monsters on fire. Who woulda thunk? That is the most asinine approach to incidental damage calculation I have ever seen. You'd think that PoE would use the, I don't know... Intuitive way to calculate damage to remain consistent. That would be (and this is so simple guys and saves a lot of headache). Damage Rolled * 33% Roll 100 Damage? Enemy has 75% fire resist? You deal 25 damage, and the enemy takes 8 damage per second. Totally consistent with mechanical explanation and easily calculated. Boom burn does exactly what it says it does (33% of damage dealt) and resistances don't double dip. Because seriously fire got the short end of the stick already why penalize it further against resistant enemies. IGN - PlutoChthon, Talvathir	Posted by Autocthon#5515 on Mar 26, 2013, 6:59:16 PM Quote this Post
" Autocthon wrote: " ScrotieMcB wrote: " PackersFTW wrote: Also, does any of what you said change if you were to use Flammability instead of Fire Penetration? (I'm aware of the difference between penetration and resist though.) Yes. Positive resistance and Flammability both double-dip. Penetration only single-dips because the penetration only applies to the initial hit; it doesn't apply to the DoT effect. Take 3: Under constant Level 6 Flammability. Example 1, take 3: 480 Fire damage vs 0% Fire resistance, resistance reduced to -35%, deals 648 damage, triggers ignite. Ignite is set to do 6484/3 = 864 fire damage over 4 seconds against -35% resistance, negative resistance makes it 1166.4 damage over 4 seconds, aka 291.6 damage per second. Example 2, take 3: 480 Fire damage vs 75% fire resistance, resistance reduced to 40%, does 288 damage, triggers ignite. Ignite is set to do 2884/3 = 384 fire damage over 4 seconds. Due to 40% fire resistance, it deals 172.8 damage over 4 seconds, aka 43.2 damage per second. That's 4 times as much as without Flammability, and a little over 1/4 of the damage to 0% resist monsters without Flammability. Take 4: Under constant Level 20 Flammability and Level 20 Fire Penetration. Example 1, take 4: 480 Fire damage vs 0% Fire resistance, resistance reduced to -84%, deals 883 damage, triggers ignite. Ignite is set to do 8834/3 = 1177 fire damage over 4 seconds against -49% resistance, negative resistance makes it 1755 damage over 4 seconds, aka 439 damage per second. Example 2, take 4: 480 Fire damage vs 75% fire resistance, resistance reduced to -9%, does 523 damage, triggers ignite. Ignite is set to do 5234/3 = 700 fire damage over 4 seconds. Due to 26% fire resistance, it deals 516 damage over 4 seconds, aka 129 damage per second. That's over 12 times as much as take 1, and over 5 times as much as Penetration alone. So yeah, Flammability is especially important if you're trying to light monsters on fire. Who woulda thunk? That is the most asinine approach to incidental damage calculation I have ever seen. You'd think that PoE would use the, I don't know... Intuitive way to calculate damage to remain consistent. That would be (and this is so simple guys and saves a lot of headache). Damage Rolled * 33% Roll 100 Damage? Enemy has 75% fire resist? You deal 25 damage, and the enemy takes 8 damage per second. Totally consistent with mechanical explanation and easily calculated. Boom burn does exactly what it says it does (33% of damage dealt) and resistances don't double dip. Because seriously fire got the short end of the stick already why penalize it further against resistant enemies. Ya, I had this burn build with Firestorm, which may not be good in the first place, but I had to take back the burning passives/gems because of finding out that resists double dip on DoTs. Ya that's great that they double dip when they start out with 0% resist and you get them into the negatives, but it makes it OP on both ends of the spectrum. Messed up indeed.	Posted by PackersFTW#3100 on Mar 31, 2013, 6:25:59 PM Quote this Post