Betrayal isn't just too hard; it's bad design.

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DemonicSlayer2015 wrote:

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007Bistromath wrote:

Dude, no. This isn't an appropriate place for old men yelling at clouds. I grew up with the C64 and the NES. Games that don't tell you how to play them are bad, and it's a testament to the maturity of this medium that so many developers realize that now. Challenge should be about difficulty of planning and execution, not fumbling around being unaware of the rules.

What exactly is the point of playing games if they tell you how to do everything? There literally isnt.... Seems like the new internet generation may be rubbing off on you as people feel "entitled" (Everything should be easy and done MY WAY)

Can you seriously not tell the difference between "here's how you win" and "these are the rules of the game?" That's just dense.

Some of you are missing that even old games told you how to play the game by designing levels that taught you by you simply playing the game itself. You didn't have tutorials or messages popping up on screen but designers knew how to make levels that ramped it up as you went along. Generally introducing mechanics independently then potentially combining them.

This game doesn't really do any of that well. A giant catalogue of tutorials doesn't really cut it when they probably could teach players a little better by having them play the game. That being said, I'm not really sure how they can change that. The game kind of evolves at a fairly rapid pace. A bunch of games have this issue, a lot of MMOs do as well. Where you find yourself on wiki pages just to figure out if something works or not.

As far as Betrayal goes, I love the reward system when it comes to SSF. Some of the best fun I've had trying to line up the right safehouse leaders. But the fights themselves aren't terribly great. Most of the time it's a cluster of mtxs, abilites, multiple members on top of each other. Ironically when it's just against 1 member it's fine, you can see what they are doing. Depending on who comes out on the other hand can be frustrating if you have to fight them and don't just blow them up.

Older games back in the day did in fact give you an understanding of how to play the game. And this came in the form of an actual "Book" that you had to read.

Most were on the controls and character understanding elements, but many also helped with the encounters in the world. Some manuals were in-depth with information including "Lore" on specific aspects things that can kill your character.

Thing is a lot of us chose just to not read these manuals and just play the game and learn as we go. However,some games also included some help features in-game via tips and tutorials.

Yes trial an error was a big factor in learning, but this was a result in how you controlled your character, but all information was transparent or given in order to successfully get through it all.

Now days with the huge amount of stuff you can do in game, a lot of details are "summed up" or either left out because attention is focused on the work load in getting it done with "deadlines, money, shareholders, bla bla bla" rather than spending time writing useful information,story. That's why story driven games lacking in content or just badly written is because its rushed to get other things done.

I wouldn't say GGG is trying to do everything "in-complete" but it would be nice to see a small team focused on improving the core content of its game while a separate part still focus on additional and ongoing content.

Interesting take. For some the complexity is the draw. I loved the fact that GGG puts stuff in the game they don't tell us about. They do it intentionally because they feel it gives the player a sense of discovery.

They are right.

Leagues, for the most part, have been very straight forward in the past. This one felt so different and interesting. It was actually really nice trying to figure out the syndicate members, where they should be aligned, and the best way to fight them.

I thoroughly enjoyed this league and might be my favorite of all time next to Legacy.

Betrayal + Incursion lite + Delve Lite + Bestiary Lite gives so much to do in the game that every night would feel like a refreshing experience.

I hope GGG continues the complexity in their leagues going forward because this is super fun.

This league is the biggest cluster flock to date...

Lets start with the huge power creep... Yep its big this league.

Okay... so we power creeped...

Were maps adjusted for the power creep? Nope. Were bosses adjusted for the power creep? nope. Was incursion adjusted? nope. Was beast adjusted? Nope. Was delve adjusted? Nope ( They just kept the majority of folks out of it ).

So what did GGG do In an effort to combat the power creep they just instilled into the game? someone had the bright idea of dumping static content on the maps in a one size fits all model. Welcome to the syndicate.

One size models always work right? I mean no one is bitching about its to hard or to easy.

Lets sum it up... Power creep hard. Adjust/balance nothing. Dump static content on top of maps. Keep folks out of challenging delve content.

Did I miss anything?

Fyi... I think syndicate is easy.

NS

Edit... Let me summarize game play now. maps - Easy mode. Bosses - easy mode. Incursion - easy mode. Beast - Easy mode. Syndicate - 10-15 secs of okay game play. Delve - not accessible at challenging levels.

so maybe 1/30th of game play time is interesting.

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Prizy wrote:

Interesting take. For some the complexity is the draw. I loved the fact that GGG puts stuff in the game they don't tell us about. They do it intentionally because they feel it gives the player a sense of discovery.

They are right.

Leagues, for the most part, have been very straight forward in the past. This one felt so different and interesting. It was actually really nice trying to figure out the syndicate members, where they should be aligned, and the best way to fight them.

I thoroughly enjoyed this league and might be my favorite of all time next to Legacy.

Betrayal + Incursion lite + Delve Lite + Bestiary Lite gives so much to do in the game that every night would feel like a refreshing experience.

I hope GGG continues the complexity in their leagues going forward because this is super fun.

Part of the problem with this, especially pre-nerf, was that the obtuse trial and error design and no idea how hard the difficulty is going to scale makes it easy to stumble into setting up a punishing Betrayal layout early in the acts and end up struggling to undo it all later in the game.

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herflik wrote:

POE require absolutly no player skill.

You do not realize that many people not just refuse to learn but can't even accurately click? Ofcourse game REQUIRES no skills but if you don't see people posting screenshots of themselves killing Shaper first time after years of playing the game you probably live in some close discord room with people who breath games. Base game is easy for us but we just can't see skills we developed, how fast and accurate we can be in navigation, coordination or appraisal. There is huge difference between people and everyone can become better, faster and more confident player.