The pros and cons of power disparities (aka "bad" game balance)

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Fruz wrote:
Always entertaining ( to some extent ) to see people that don't understand how defenses actually work in this game and play the forum more than the game claim that "defenses suck in PoE ! they are useless !".

And no, life does not provide the "best" buffer, ES does.

That discussion was about life-based builds, in case you haven't noticed. I even specifically mentioned CI, implying the only decent build I made recently that didn't utilize the big life wheel didn't need life to begin with.

And I bet you can pick any of the main defenses, and find more than a few threads filled with complaints about them. But you seem more interested in if / how / how much people are playing than whether their arguments have merit.

So stop looking at people's challenge scores (and assuming they don't know about the game's mechanics), "calling them out" on their private profiles (as if that's relevant at all to the discussion), and any other ad hominem nonsense and start reading their posts and creating counter-arguments if you want to get somewhere.



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SisterBlister wrote:
I was also hoping to get more of an idea of why GGG allows such huge power disparities, but the consensus seems to be "They just cannot fix it"

There's also @torturo's first post in this thread, implying "they don't want to fix it" because they profit from this "balance" model. Let's not forget that very real possibility.

Of course, if that's the case, a big chunk of the discussion in this thread (including most of my contributions) may very well have been for naught. But still, I wouldn't participate if I didn't enjoy the discussion itself, so... eh.
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- Self-proclaimed king of level 172 budget builds -
"Security token has expired. Please submit the form again."
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Fruz wrote:


The part about how you despise "meta-kids supporters who want to feel like god and can't do anything by themselves" is quite [auto-censored] though.
Even more from a private profile.
I know, it's better to let out of one's frustration on others rather than do stuff and think by oneself :).
How ironic.


Thank you for providing a perfect example for what I described! Yes, really ironic indeed.

At least one git gud white knight not away on summer holiday...

And, yeah sure, because "I don't think by myself" I brouht up one of the few fresh answers to OP's question why GGG "allows such huge power disparities". They just cannot fix it because it's part of their business model.
Enjoy the damned labyrinth? Go play Tomb Raider...

Wraeclast is not Las Vegas! Stop the fucking RNG lottery!
I would dare you to find where my meta characters are, but .... :)
Ironic how you are the one with a private profile heh.

You the fact that you understand that PoE is an online game is a proof that you can think by yourself ?
hahahaha
The fact that you feel the need to try justifying yourself there speaks volume actually.
SSF is not and will never be a standard for balance, it is not for people entitled to getting more without trading.
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SisterBlister wrote:
I was also hoping to get more of an idea of why GGG allows such huge power disparities, but the consensus seems to be "They just cannot fix it", partly because it's just become too hard with all the multipliers and partly because they don't care enough to dedicate more resources that way.


See my contribution to answer your question above.



As far as the matter of penalties for ranged attacks is concerned, I enjoy to bring up once again my favourite "ceterum censeo": Compare POE to Diablo 1 and 2!
Bow builds face three main differences: a) multi projectile attacks, b) very fast mana regeneration and easy mana leech, c) no ammunition consumtion/weapon durability reduction

a) GMP, LMP, split arrow, fork, chain, uniques, corruption mods, tree and ascendancy classes provides you with the ability to hit huge zones offscreen with one attack. In Diablo 1 and 2 you nearly only fired precisely one single arrow per attack. Technically you COULD offscreen, but you would nearly always miss.

b) I know how annoying zero mana regeneration in D1 and painfully slow mana regeneration in D2 were in general, but it also had one good aspect: The mana costs of an attack practically FORCED you to aim very well so you could leech (in D2, in D1 you would simply attack purely physical without spending mana). In POE you can hit anything once in a while in the zone you are offscreening and leech more than enough to continue shooting. In the worst case you have to take a one second pause until your mana is regenerated.

c) I really hate to argue in favour of these two otherwise absolutely annoying elements of D1 and D2, but running out of arrows or wrecking your Windforce made you think twice about any unaimed shot.

So, the "mass instead of class" dogma of POE provides you with enough spam attacks to mindlessly offscreen. In Diablo 1 and 2 you had (compared to POE) very few but much tougher monsters with remarkably smarter AI you really had to fight instead of pressing one button and make two screens explode.
I don't think we need to punish distance at all - let's just reintroduce tactics into the genre of ARPG. Let's get away from the mass destruction mentality and let's return to actually aim your shot. Also, let's reduce the speed of events. Diablo 2 ran at a perfect speed, that was neither boring nor mindless trashy one shot hectic. It was much slower than POE, but it gave you the time to think about killing and to aim your shot. And to manually evade monster attacks that now would one-shoot you or not, depending on your dodging roll, evasion percentage or whatever RNG gambling number.

I know it sounds strange if I discuss "realism" about a fantasy ARPG, but there are fantasy elements that are more believable than others. Like caustic arrow: It's not that unplausible to imagine an arrow with a small glass container with poisonous gas in it. If you admit the fantasy of elementary magic, an arrow imbued with cold or lightning is imaginable. Burning arrows actually really existed. But shooting three, five, seven or even more arrows from an ordinary bow in one action spreading in precisely equal angle - that's so plainly ridiculous that before POE afaik only Mel Brook's Robin Hood: Men in tights had it (This picture: https://www.amazon.de/Robin-Hood-Strumpfhosen-Cary-Elwes/dp/B00004UF15).
Equally ridiculous is the high speed of all attacks, especially bow attacks. Barrage is an extreme example for it.
The worst "unrealistic" skill is tornado shot: An arrow splitting in three others starting in precise angle from the point of impact of the orgiinal arrow... But not only for that I really hate tornado shot - also because you just can't aim properly. And sadly tornado shot is the only really successful bow skill in POE.

If you want to punish distance at all, do it realistically by reducing precision. Like half a screen away - only every second arrow hits or something like that.
Enjoy the damned labyrinth? Go play Tomb Raider...

Wraeclast is not Las Vegas! Stop the fucking RNG lottery!
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HaraldMKutscher wrote:
I know it sounds strange if I discuss "realism" about a fantasy ARPG, but there are fantasy elements that are more believable than others.

Not strange at all. "Verisimilitude" is a very real thing, whatever the setting is. Unless it's something like a "dream state" (where things aren't supposed to make sense) there can always be things you'll accept without a blink, and things that will make you say "oh come on!"

Personally, I don't think shooting multiple arrows in an ARPG is one of the latter, but I'll admit I found that Robin Hood picture to be hilarious (not to mention fitting) in this context.

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HaraldMKutscher wrote:
If you want to punish distance at all, do it realistically by reducing precision. Like half a screen away - only every second arrow hits or something like that.

In other words, you're suggesting a decrease in accuracy instead of damage? I can get behind that, even though I think a reduction in damage would be just as intuitive.

Think "putting full force behind a melee blow" vs. "arrows slowing down over distance". Or a fireball "fizzling out" over time.

---

I mentioned the buffed Arc before, but I just remembered another skill that already works similar to the Point Blank mechanic (and should have been a more obvious example):
Freezing Pulse.

And another that was buffed recently to be more effective at close range:
Ground Slam.

Seems like the devs are already toying with a similar idea and testing the waters here and there... What do you think?
____________________________________________________________________________________

- Self-proclaimed king of level 172 budget builds -
"Security token has expired. Please submit the form again."
____________________________________________________________________________________
Limiting and nerfing, ugh. You guys are terrible at balance.
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Miská wrote:
Limiting and nerfing, ugh. You guys are terrible at balance.

Any contribution from your side? Suggestions?
People did give arguments for their nerf suggestions. Care to counter them? Do you prefer power creep?

It would be interesting to hear arguments from your side, as you obviously disagree with lots of people here.
May your maps be bountiful, exile
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SisterBlister wrote:
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Miská wrote:
Limiting and nerfing, ugh. You guys are terrible at balance.

Any contribution from your side? Suggestions?
People did give arguments for their nerf suggestions. Care to counter them? Do you prefer power creep?

It would be interesting to hear arguments from your side, as you obviously disagree with lots of people here.


It's very hard to get in between in a thread like this. It is made and commented on by people who play a different game then I do.

For example, there is no skill currently in the game that has a real issue clearing incursions. If you have trouble clearing them, you need to either 1. get better gear or 2. make a better build. (with the same skill)

You can't purposely handicap yourself and then complain you are out of options.

I also wouldn't limit someone else his playstyle just because it wouldn't affect me personally. Those are by far the worst suggestions made in this topic.

And lastly powercreep is just an illusion. It's not nearly as crazy as some people claim it is. The powercreep and insane clear speed was always there. It's just available to a wider public since gear progression became meaningless.
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Fruz wrote:

Because then you remove so many of the "bad choices" since you have life with everything anyway, right ?
And you don't have to make a choice whether or not you want life or ES either.
And pathing through the skill tree becomes trivial, you don't even need knowledge, just take all the damage node ( because they already have life pool with it ) and screw the rest, don't think.

I rather remove "too good choices" (aka picking life node is almost always "the best choice").
About "damage" - there are many kinds of "damage" nodes - %damage, AS/CS, crit chance, crit multiplier, accuracy, etc. Also, there are armour, evasion, ES, block and other defensive nodes. So you want to claim there wont be any choice? Oh, maybe because pure armour or eva nodes are just too weak to be picked over life or DPS? Or certain DPS clusters are way too weak to be picked by any sane man? While "5% life nodes" are too powerful for what they do...

ATM, your "thinking" with skilltree is about how to grab all "fat" %life nodes, get requires keystones and few the MOST powerful DPS clusters among tons of mediocre DPS clusters that almost no one uses.

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SisterBlister wrote:

3. I'd add a time-component to that as well: The longer a fight lasts (from first damage to death), the better loot the monster drops, or the less dmg it does (it gets tired). Within limits of course, just waiting around should not really pay off.

Ha, that reminds me "Blade & Sword 2", where the longer "combo" you perform on the enemy on kill, the better loot you'll receive. So, massacring hordes of monsters as quick as possible was far from best "item farming way" The best way was isolating single enemy, and then performing a "brutality" combo over him :). At least, it requires far more skill, than simple "right-clicking to death"...
IGN: MortalKombat
Molten Strike build guide: https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/1346504

There is no knowledge
That is not power
Last edited by MortalKombat3#6961 on Jul 26, 2018, 5:56:33 PM
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SisterBlister wrote:

3. I'd add a time-component to that as well: The longer a fight lasts (from first damage to death), the better loot the monster drops, or the less dmg it does (it gets tired). Within limits of course, just waiting around should not really pay off.


This is one of the things that is hilariously honestly. You are actually saying the worse you make your character the better rewards you should get. Upside down world.

Doing it the other way around is just as bad, but would actually make sense. There is zero reason to ever grant more loot to promote slow play. What's next? More loot when you wear no rares? More loot for not using the skill tree? How about more loot if you can prove you only have 10min per day to play?

Shameless attempt to improve your own gameplay style at the cost of others.
Last edited by Miská#0911 on Jul 26, 2018, 6:54:02 PM

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