Weapon Scaling: A balance issue

So, one thing that I've noticed glaring through the gameplay is the issue with how weapons scale in damage.

Weapons without increased damage percent are worthless, and static damage mods are rarely enough to offset that bonus. And this all goes doubly for 2h weapons.
At the same time, caster weapons don't really scale at all. You can get 14% spell damage on a level 1 vine wand, and still can't pass 20% on a level 60 igniter (intrinsic mod, not magical).

The result for casters is that iLevel determines everything, because the stats that a wand gains as you progress through the tiers are 100% useless to casting.

The result for melee is that a single magical mod is of excess importance.

What can be done?

1) Increase the numbers on elemental damage mods by 10-20%.
2) Make it so that 2h weapons do 50% increased damage from static mods (or simply have access to better versions of these mods).
3) Give scepters and wands some actual tier-based scaling to casters. For example, 6% increased spell damage on vine wands, +2% per tier (18 tiers, so 17 increases). This would cap at 40% spell damage, and actually make the 30% gap between top-tier and bottom meaningful when finding loot.
4) Decrease the power of increased physical damage % by 27%
5) Increase the base damage values of weapons by 15% (a weapon that was 100% IPD will now be 70%, but do the same damage it used to).

Results:
Static damage mods will become more viable as alternates to IPD%.
IPD will be slightly less mandatory, and have lower impact while leveling (versus tier-upgrades), while static damage will have a bit more.
Wands will have tier-based difference to casters, although significant enough mods can overcome these still (which doesn't happen with weapon damage values).

As for physical weapons:

While I do agree with your reasoning, its been that way in D2 and many games after - maybe theres a reson for that?

I mean - even after you apply the changes any phys damage stick would still be useless without the %enhanced damage, dont you think so?

I do think that the elemental damage mods need a huge boost (just to make them meaningful at all) actually, but that wouldn't change the whole picture that much.

The awesome slot machine like loot system goes well with the huge differences in the values of mods - dont you love that OH SH** a 195% ED AXE!!! feeling after all (=

As for casters:

I dont think youll get the kind of scaling that melees have untill casters will actually base their spells off weapon damage - but once again I'm not sure I actually would want to see that. D2 might have spoiled me, but I do like the differences between building caster and melee.

tldr: Why what we currently see isn't perfect (and it cannot be and never will), the possible alternatives might not be better.

Absolutely agree that the non ed%/aspd%/flat damage mods need to be buffed or a nerf in the other direction or both.

"

nermind wrote:

As for physical weapons:

While I do agree with your reasoning, its been that way in D2 and many games after - maybe theres a reson for that?

I mean - even after you apply the changes any phys damage stick would still be useless without the %enhanced damage, dont you think so?

I do think that the elemental damage mods need a huge boost (just to make them meaningful at all) actually, but that wouldn't change the whole picture that much.

The awesome slot machine like loot system goes well with the huge differences in the values of mods - dont you love that OH SH** a 195% ED AXE!!! feeling after all (=

As for casters:

I dont think youll get the kind of scaling that melees have untill casters will actually base their spells off weapon damage - but once again I'm not sure I actually would want to see that. D2 might have spoiled me, but I do like the differences between building caster and melee.

tldr: Why what we currently see isn't perfect (and it cannot be and never will), the possible alternatives might not be better.

Going to present a few examples here to illustrate the current system and new system, using a 2h weapon:

Headsman Axe (41): 154 dps
Hammer Axe (45): 162 dps
Fasces (49): 175 dps
Reaver Axe (53): 189 dps
Eviscerator (58): 207 dps
Gutsplitter (60): 214 dps

Now, I'm going to say that finding a 30-40% IPD version of a weapon is "easy". Finding a 70-100% IPD version is "hard". Finding a 120-150% IPD version is "very hard". And finding a 175-200% IPD version is "nearly impossible".
All using the current system.

So if you have a 100% IPD Headsman Axe, maybe a nice rare with other mods, it is better than anything you will get for the rest of the game, unless the mods on the replacement can generate 94 dps. Gutsplitter makes 1.15 attacks per second, so static damage mods would have to add an average of *81* damage to compete. How many items do you see that have 81 damage worth of elemental/physical static damage mods?

But, at least 30-40% IPD% is easy to find. So lets assume that you find a 40% version of each axe. That would give you a 264 dps Reaver Axe, 289.8 dps Eviscerator, and a 299.6 dps Gutsplitter.
Compared to your 308 dps Headsman Axe.

So, most likely, the only way that you are going to replace your level 41 axe is by TRADING for a better one.

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Now lets look at those same numbers, adjusted as I suggested. All weapons do 15% more base damage, and IPD% is 27% lower.

Headsman Axe (41): 177 dps
Hammer Axe (45): 186 dps
Fasces (49): 201 dps
Reaver Axe (53): 217 dps
Eviscerator (58): 238 dps
Gutsplitter (60): 246 dps

After nerfs, a 22-29% IPD version of a weapon is "easy". Finding a 51-73% IPD version is "hard". Finding a 88-110% IPD version is "very hard". And finding a 128-146% IPD version is "nearly impossible".

So an ideal "hard" Headsman Axe (same example as before) will be 177 dps and 73% IPD%. For a net 306 dps (a loss of 2 dps). My numbers are balanced around 100% IPD% weapons remaining equal (worse IPD get better, higher values/rarity of IPD get worse).

In order for a Gutsplitter to do more damage, it needs either 52 damage of elemental mods (significantly more common than 81), or an IPD of 24% (which falls into the "easy" category). This would be the equivalent of 33% IPD under the current drop values.
For a 29% IPD weapon (40% pre-nerf) to out-pace the nice Headsman Axe, you would need to upgrade to at least a Reaver Axe (needs 30% IPD%). That's still 12 levels of using the weapon, which seems quite proper for a significant drop in mod quality going up tiers.

Finally, to look at the net damage lost on an "optimal" weapon:
225% IPD (you can get higher, but this seems like a good level to use) Gutsplitter:
Current system - 696 dps
Proposed system - 649 dps

A loss of 47 dps (less than 10%). Yes this hurts the top end. But realize that a 150% IPD% level 60 weapon is already dishing out more than enough dps to speed-clear the game. That will still be true.

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Now, in response to you saying "D2 did it, and other games, so it must be right"...
That is the worst logic ever.

A few key points:
1) At the supreme levels (current system 200% and better IPD%), IPD% will still be champion. But those are not the items that most players use as they play the game. Those are items that require intense currency use to achive. This is perfectly okay. There are going to be mods that are more optimum than others. If all mods were equal, there would be no need to waste thousands of orbs crafting.
2) At the levels typically generated randomly though, this allows for much greater diversity in "which items are good". Items that roll 3 elemental damage mods will have a fighting chance for dps versus an IPD% weapon despite the handicap of missing out on many of your passive bonuses.
3) Impressive values of IPD% will still be hard to get, because the entire spectrum is being condensed down by 27%. They'll just be a bit less extreme in damage dished out (but still more than enough).

Finally, regarding casters:
I'm not saying they need melee-style progression. I'm just saying they need *some* scaling. Currently, a Vine Wand is just as good as an Igniter, assuming equal iLevel. That seems silly, because that means that a Witch (or caster Templar) has nine to eighteen times better weapon drops than melee characters (because if anything lower tier for melee drops, it takes a hit in usability).

I tend to disagree.

For example if you compare a ~100% Ed weapon to a ~175%ED weapon then after all passivs and skils you've probably something like:

100% ED weapon, you've a fair chance to find one like that:

100% ED + 150% passivess +100% Ed skills
->350% ED total

175:% ED, realy good and rare weapon
->425% ED


Of course 425% is better than 350% but the difference doesn't look so huge now, right? It's about 20% more damage you deal.

ED should be an 'implicit mod' on all weapons.
That would make it alot more balanced.

"

overpowdered wrote:

I tend to disagree.

For example if you compare a ~100% Ed weapon to a ~175%ED weapon then after all passivs and skils you've probably something like:

100% ED weapon, you've a fair chance to find one like that:

100% ED + 150% passivess +100% Ed skills
->350% ED total

175:% ED, realy good and rare weapon
->425% ED


Of course 425% is better than 350% but the difference doesn't look so huge now, right? It's about 20% more damage you deal.

Local enhanced damage is applied before (and multiplicative) with passives.

100 dps weapon
100% enhanced damage
100% weapon damage from passives
results in 400 dps.

Thanks for letting me know that my opinion is "the worst logic ever", great discussion thread so far (:

Anyway - where you see imbalance I see variety and not having "the best" is fine by me, just like is putting some effort into getting good stuff.

I'm sure that most of game's orbs will be used towards weapons so there will be many many good ones (failed "godly" rolls) going cheap enough.

Just another two cents (=

"

nermind wrote:

Thanks for letting me know that my opinion is "the worst logic ever", great discussion thread so far (:

Anyway - where you see imbalance I see variety and not having "the best" is fine by me, just like is putting some effort into getting good stuff.

I'm sure that most of game's orbs will be used towards weapons so there will be many many good ones (failed "godly" rolls) going cheap enough.

Just another two cents (=

You did not present an opinion.
You stated that "While I do agree with your reasoning, its been that way in D2 and many games after - maybe theres a reson for that?"
The reason that this mechanic is present in many games is a lack of innovation, not that it is the best solution possible.
Assuming that other games did something because it was perfect is what I am referring to as "bad logic". It is making huge assumptions.
Assumptions are not logic. Hence, it is the worst possible logic. A bit of hyperbole, but the point was made clearly.

Additionally, I did not discard the rest of your post based on that single statement. I took the time to answer the rest of the points your brought up.

As far as the issue of "imbalance vs variety" perceptions, I am curious where you see "variety" in the current weapon scaling. IPD% is REQUIRED on weapons. To me, that is the opposite of variety. Every good weapon out there has the same prefix. If it doesn't, then it isn't competitive.

And the point isn't that "eventually there will be tons of good items to trade for". The point is the gap between "junk" and "good" is extreme. One "good" item lasts far longer in game progression than it should. That is an opinion though, and I would assume you disagree on that point.

I personally think that Godly weapons need to stay Godly (although a slight ripple nerf isn't going to do them that much harm). But the gap between normal and good (in terms of IPD%) needs to narrow, in order to increase the *variety* of good items that really does not currently exist.

"

wyldmage wrote:

...Going to present a few examples here to illustrate the current system and new system, using a 2h weapon...

I think those examples are biased in favor of percentage physical damage mods - given that two-handed weapons have to have higher DPS to make up for the lack of blocking or shield defenses. Not only that, you've picked axes for your example, which specifically deal more damage than other weapons.

Also, all of the other damage mods have other considerations beyond baseline DPS: elemental damage burns/freezes/shocks (and is affected by the "weapon elemental damage" mods), and straight physical damage is multiplied by the increased weapon damage mods.

After all, if you could do the same listed DPS with fire damage, you'd actually kill faster thanks to the burning.