Vouch-Threads - or how GGG scams their own playerbase.

Currently, and always, really, there are a LOT of vouch-threads for all kinds of things that we do not have an official trading system for - Cross-League trading, Uberlab Services, Endgame-Boss services, Challenge-services, you name it.

Technically, this is a good thing.
It allows the players who wish to engage in such behavior - while never completely safe because there are no true safetynets ingame - which is, in my opinion, fine - some security in that a vendor/trader with a lot of positive and no negative feedback is less likely to scam them.
It also allows the truly good and honest vendor/traders to advertise their services.

Or so it seems.

The problem: The current system SEEMS TO offer security and peace of mind for players.
But it doesn't.
GGG actively deletes any and all posts in vouch-threads that accuse the vendor/trader of not holding up their side of the bargain.
Since this is the case (for whatever reason - some say NZ Law requires them to, others say it doesn't, there's a shitton of guesses out there), EVERY vouch-thread has ONLY positive reviews.
Worse even, they don't even need to be truthful. I could literally make a post offering some service and then have my friends "vouch" that I am honest, pay random players 5c ingame to "vouch" for me, make additional accounts to "vouch" for myself.
If anyone ever says I scammed or tried to buy vouches, it will get removed.
And then I can start scamming players that read that thread left, right and center.
I can even choose to only scam every now and again to generate more positive vouches from more different people.
Reports about my scams will always get deleted.
Reports about my successful carry/trade/whatever will never get deleted.



Now, this is a known issue.
Everyone that regularly visits secondary communication channels about the game (be it Discord, Reddit, or whatever else) knows about it.
It's become so bloody apparent and is being obviously abused that the probably biggest secondary fan-page (PoE-reddit) is talking about creating a Hobo-code to mark scammers and protect players (https://www.reddit.com/r/pathofexile/comments/8v8fic/disappointed_with_ggg_and_a_note_about_vouch/).


Since GGG actively removes any negative feedback posts on threads actively asking for feedback (vouch-threads), in my opinion, that makes GGG directly complicit in scamming-attempts.

Which bears the question: If you cannot or do not want to allow negative feedback on your forums - which, in my opinion, is a fine stance to take. Less power to toxicity, and negative feedback-vouches can be abused just as the positive ones by destroying someones reputation - either out of spite or because they're a competitor.

Then why allow them at all?
Why make yourself complicit in scamming-attempts on your own playerbase?

You clearly and obviously do not support these player-interactions (as is written all over the place - GGG takes no liability for cross-league trades or other trades that cannot be done through the given trade windows).
So why do you help give the APPEARANCE of secure traders when you refuse to let negative reviews go through?
Why do you feel the need to help potential scammers, but not to catch them?
If you don't want to support non-tradewindow-trading, then why do you still support it?

Either allow all feedback-threads and answers.
Or allow none.
Only allowing one side just asks to be abused.

how to you prevent players from cheating challenge completions or other achievements like lab without killing party play?

letting players grieve each other with "services" obviously isn't ok and it's also illusional to have support check every ingame interaction after a complaint.

their current stance to have reddit deal with those nonsensical scam warnings for anonymous accounts seems like the best solution.

I'm not saying they should prevent players from "cheating challenge completions", whatever that may be refering to.



I'm saying they should either not allow vouch-threads, or allow vouch-threads in their entirety (which would include people saying "he did not do what he said he would").

Allowing and supporting vouch-threads, but only leaving positive vouches up while meticulously deleting negative ones is the problem.

EDIT: To, again, explain:
Since vouch-threads on the official forums exist, but all negative responses are deleted, it destroys the point of vouch-threads, because there is no way for the people looking at them to make up their mind based on positive/negative ratios or anything, and because it looks like if the seller does not hold up their side of the bargain, they have something to loose (their reputation because you can leave a negative review). But that's not the case. And the new player who looks to use the service offered can not see that.

At the same time, it actually encourages scamming because they ACT AS IF they were a review-place (which by definition includes both negative and positive) while actually NOT being that.

And THAT is the problem.
Not the fact that players want to buy challenges. Gamer's gonna game. But from GGGs Point of View, they should make it clear that such trades have zero safety. The positive-only reviews without an official statement/warning that negative ones are deleted give the image that there is reason for trust when in reality there isn't.

A sticky thread explaining how vouche threads work would be a start...

GGG ain't scamming anyone. The problem is the greedy and disgusting playerbase alongside a cancerous trading system. For me all lab carries and etc could go to hell and force people do them on their own. If you want reliable people just join a guild with active players and make join parties there and stay out of any global/public group. It's basic trust system, if you blindly trust randoms it's your fault. Reddit making their own exclusive system is just like a guild where you get excluded if not behaving correctly. Nothing against scammers either. It's Wraeclast after all.

"

Wazz72 wrote:

A sticky thread explaining how vouche threads work would be a start...

People ignore stickied threads, they ignore confirmation boxes, common sense and more.

This is a perfect example of why needless censorship and/or moderating is a stupid idea. If people can't properly voice their opinions this kind of thing is inevitable. It's good for nobody.

Pull your heads out of your assess GGG. Stop the ridiculous over moderation.

"

Legatus1982 wrote:

This is a perfect example of why needless censorship and/or moderating is a stupid idea. If people can't properly voice their opinions this kind of thing is inevitable. It's good for nobody.

Pull your heads out of your assess GGG. Stop the ridiculous over moderation.

but the moderators have to censor people to prove that ggg needs to keep paying moderators to censor people! duh! they're helping!!!!

"

Legatus1982 wrote:

This is a perfect example of why needless censorship and/or moderating is a stupid idea. If people can't properly voice their opinions this kind of thing is inevitable. It's good for nobody.

Pull your heads out of your assess GGG. Stop the ridiculous over moderation.

well, cause nobody mentioned it yet, they have anti cyber bullying laws in nz they have to comply to.
somebody harrassed in any forum they maintain, however useless the complaint, can bring them to court in nz which may result in a fine.

but yes, if all complaints about services are censored, if i were ggg i would also delete all advertisement or appreciation of such "services".

...
and, to be honest, i never read any opinion of ggg about "services" either. does anybody have a respective link?

+1

Any negative comment on a 'service' thread can and will be reported by the thread creator as 'naming and shaming' and will be deleted by the moderators. Since the thread always explicitly names its creator, any negativity there is automatically 'naming and shaming'.

This is a rather stupid loophole that allows for 100% positive 'vouch' threads. Those threads cannot be trusted at all. If somebody runs a boss killing service that fails 9 out of 10 times, they will still get some vouches from those lucky 1-in-10 clients, and nobody will ever know how bad this service is. The thread creator can outright lie and get away with anything they post.