Really burned out bad challenges and the elder/shaper mini-game

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Perq wrote:

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goetzjam wrote:

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Perq wrote:

I wouldn't mind this element all that much if buying items like maps/currency/essences/whatever wasn't big waste of time and spam. :/

O please give me a break.

Trade is fine and the official site is great.

Use the official site for trade and if you are that impatient, you can use poe.trade for live search of whatever map you want and just message the person that just listed the map to ensure you get a response.

Complain about trade all you want, but if you refuse to use the tools available to you, then the problem is you, not the system.

As if I wasn't using the official tools? o_o I'm. What I'm saying is that using them is pointlessly confusing, spammy and otherwise annoying, especially how many maps you need to participate in the system.

The problem is the system, not me. And please, argue how this adds to the game/balance/whatever instead of trying to say I'm some sort of incompetent player (aka ad hominems).

So you have a problem while using the same system I do? Does that perhaps indicate that maybe you are doing something wrong or different that might be causing your issue?


As for how the player interaction adds to the system, the current situation in the incursion league was a good example, bots causing exalts to get inflated to higher then ever records indicate anything to you?

I understand zana mods and lack of chaos sinks this league, but imagine a system in which bots could literally snipe up deals before any humans ever had a chance?



Lets look at the things you mentioned and figure out why it might be a good idea that you need to "connect" to another player to made it.

Maps for example are something you either get to drop or something you need to buy (especially if you are doing the atlas), the difficult part about this is the lower tier map you go the harder it likely is to find someone willing to sell that map in a one off transaction. Why leave my farming to sell for an alch. To me I dont understand why people list so cheaply if they aren't willing to sell, perhaps they are if they are just afk in hideout or whatever, but even then.


The suggested way to work around this is by setting up a live search for the map. This ensures that the person just listed the map and is available to trade. It might not be 100% perfect, but it should be pretty damn good to help. Alternatively, for the cheaper ones find people in guild that can help or on friendslist.


Currency already has some vendor conversions, which makes it much less of an issue then maps even. (those have 3:1, except some of them) IMO you get enough currency to drop at this point in the game, if you don't get exactly the type you want, then you trade with players. This ensures a somewhat steady rate, while also factoring other things instead of just a flat always fixed boring rate. An AH or automated way of doing this could have drastic effects, especially when you consider the situation with exalts this league.


Again, I don't think you need to endlessly spam people in order to get stuff like this, just perhaps not get the best rate, or setup a buy order instead and wait. The problem is that everyone wants everything now and for the best possible value, the world of POE doesn't work like that. If you want something but aren't willing to wait, you must pay more then the lowest listed price (in most cases).


All of this is leading up to the instant gratification that players keep pushing for league after league, rather then enjoying the journey. That is what ultimately makes me sad about this game is that everyone wants to get there 1-2 weeks of super fun then ultimately go play fortnight or something for the rest of the league. However, POE leagues are 3 months long, why not just sit back, chill and enjoy it, rather then demand for yet another instant gratification game?

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goetzjam wrote:

I haven't had to buy any maps recently

Well, that'd partly explain how gung-ho you can be about the sorry state of trying to trade at all.

Also, with the Atlas' drop mechanics being so hostile towards letting you actually fill it in, unless RNGesus has particularly favored one, that means completing the Atlas in any reasonable length of time means buying a crapload of all the red maps. And yeah, 15 minutes that Rich mentioned is about right. I've spent more time sitting in my hideout for the sake of trading than I have doing everything else combined this league.

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goetzjam wrote:

So you have a problem while using the same system I do?

You JUST admitted you DON'T really use the system.

And when you do, knowing how you've always been, you prefer to pretend it's not there.

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goetzjam wrote:

As for how the player interaction adds to the system, the current situation in the incursion league was a good example, bots causing exalts to get inflated to higher then ever records indicate anything to you?

Hilarious that you rush to "blame bots." The pricing isn't actually a record high; I do remember when some players ACTUALLY attempted to manipulate the market during Harbinger, they got exalts as high as some 220c. Far more than 160c, which is barely over Standard.

No, the low value of chaos (it's not that exalts are strong, chaos are WEAK) is due to the league's mechanics and setup:

• The chaos recipe is easier than ever to deal with. While for savvy players, the recipe only accounts for a fraction of their income, the recipe still accounts for the vast majority of chaos to enter circulation. (e.g, for those 20-100c items I sell in spades every day, most of those chaos originally came from the recipe, rather than dropping or coming from divination cards)
  
  
• With Incursion's architect signature mods (ESPECIALLY Guatelitzi's, but also Topotante, and some others like Matatl) chaos spam stopped being a viable route to generate early-league items (or ANY items at all) very quickly. Suddenly, it's very easy to get some items with T1-equivalence or better in important mods. (respectively, life, elemental damage, and movespeed)
  
  
• With the current Zana setup, there's no bloodlines (originally the best option by far to maximize EXP and map drops) or Harbinger, and Breach was pretty heftily nerfed. That leaves us with... Abyss (which at least earlier was glitched to not even apply some of the time) and Beyond. Consequently, people are burning far fewer chaos for Zana mods.
  
  

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goetzjam wrote:

I understand zana mods and lack of chaos sinks this league, but imagine a system in which bots could literally snipe up deals before any humans ever had a chance?

It's kinda amusing that you bemoan "bots," yet in the same posting you claim that "trade is perfectly fine."

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goetzjam wrote:

Again, I don't think you need to endlessly spam people in order to get stuff like this, just perhaps not get the best rate, or setup a buy order instead and wait. The problem is that everyone wants everything now and for the best possible value, the world of POE doesn't work like that. If you want something but aren't willing to wait, you must pay more then the lowest listed price (in most cases).

All of this is leading up to the instant gratification that players keep pushing for league after league, rather then enjoying the journey.

Kind of a strange phrasing for "you should enjoy this arbitrary trading metagame that GGG didn't even design or originally intend, but now dwarfs any real content."

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goetzjam wrote:

That is what ultimately makes me sad about this game is that everyone wants to get there 1-2 weeks of super fun then ultimately go play fortnight or something for the rest of the league.

Seems you have the same problem of understanding Chris Wilson has: arbitrary filler grind of the exact same thing over and over again does not make for compelling content. There's a reason you don't see the best streamers stick around plodding for 3 months straight. They burn through as much content as can be done in an entertaining manner, then they swap over to another game that can more consistently keep them views.

I know, I know... Deep down you want to criticize those viewers for not wanting to watch the virtual equivalent of paint drying.

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goetzjam wrote:

However, POE leagues are 3 months long, why not just sit back, chill and enjoy it, rather then demand for yet another instant gratification game?

While you may have the "acquired taste" of spending 3 months banging your head against the same wall, most players actually don't want to spend 90 days in each league. Granted, there's probably some factors why you're there in that tiny minority, and everyone else doesn't feel as attached.

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Well, that'd partly explain how gung-ho you can be about the sorry state of trying to trade at all.

To be fair I said that and still purchased 5-6 different tier maps from different players yesterday. (T14-16) because I wanted to get the additional bonus on my altas because I was going to unspec out of some more maps to utilize another strategy.

I will admit if you are farming for elder (done this the last couple of leagues) that you do need more different maps, but even then I rarely ran into a problem where I ran out of a map that I needed, because I refused to sell maps (except unique ones) I still refuse to sell maps even though I'm primarily doing a shaped strategy.

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Also, with the Atlas' drop mechanics being so hostile towards letting you actually fill it in, unless RNGesus has particularly favored one, that means completing the Atlas in any reasonable length of time means buying a crapload of all the red maps. And yeah, 15 minutes that Rich mentioned is about right. I've spent more time sitting in my hideout for the sake of trading than I have doing everything else combined this league.

Then quite frankly you are extremely shit at trading or won't apply any of the things that people said. USE THE DAMN OFFICIAL SITE, I can't stress how important that is. poe.trade is always delayed due to the API being behind, however it seems like the optimization for the official site is better, I think instead of relying on just API data it also rechecks when you search that the item is still where it is suppose to be, like the old verify option poe.trade used to have.

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You JUST admitted you DON'T really use the system.

I do use the system.

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And when you do, knowing how you've always been, you prefer to pretend it's not there.

? I know its there and its actually only gotten better, again the official site is leagues better in terms of getting a response back due to the nature of how it works. I might not use it daily to buy stuff, but I absolutely do use it.

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Hilarious that you rush to "blame bots." The pricing isn't actually a record high; I do remember when some players ACTUALLY attempted to manipulate the market during Harbinger, they got exalts as high as some 220c. Far more than 160c, which is barely over Standard.

Didn't play that league, but no one except for you has mentioned it going up to that much in Harbinger and I've read multiple entries into the threads posting about it this league.

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Kind of a strange phrasing for "you should enjoy this arbitrary trading metagame that GGG didn't even design or originally intend, but now dwarfs any real content."

If GGG didn't intend for players to trade one another they would have implemented an AH or account bound items, they have done neither and instead have supported the systems that perhaps might not have been exactly what they intended but are more in line with their vision then an AH.

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Seems you have the same problem of understanding Chris Wilson has: arbitrary filler grind of the exact same thing over and over again does not make for compelling content. There's a reason you don't see the best streamers stick around plodding for 3 months straight. They burn through as much content as can be done in an entertaining manner, then they swap over to another game that can more consistently keep them views.

Yet players like Ziz can play for the whole 3 months. Keep in mind that streamers aren't everyone. They literally play more then you and me can and I play a decent amount. If some like havoc or Etup or Waggle or whoever take breaks to play other games its because they play so fucking much and the game gives them so much that they have done everything they wanted to do.

Something that used to extend this time was race seasons, but GGG refuses to support that game mode.

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While you may have the "acquired taste" of spending 3 months banging your head against the same wall, most players actually don't want to spend 90 days in each league. Granted, there's probably some factors why you're there in that tiny minority, and everyone else doesn't feel as attached.

I'm not saying it needs to be a slog all the way thru. But this instant gratification needs to stop. Plenty of games give you that sort of playstyle, why does everything that casual players touch need to turn into something they can just get a quick high off of and move onto the next thing?

Can't we have one, just one freaking game where it isn't about the casual players but rather about the players willing to put the time, effort and thought into a game?

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goetzjam wrote:

So you have a problem while using the same system I do? Does that perhaps indicate that maybe you are doing something wrong or different that might be causing your issue?


As for how the player interaction adds to the system, the current situation in the incursion league was a good example, bots causing exalts to get inflated to higher then ever records indicate anything to you?

I understand zana mods and lack of chaos sinks this league, but imagine a system in which bots could literally snipe up deals before any humans ever had a chance?

Does that perhaps indicate that you have higher tolerance to pointless activities? This argument is essentially I can go to a bank and make a transfer therefore remote banking is pointless.

The current situation only showed that this player interaction thingy doesn't help all that much, since bots can trade currency and other stuff. If anything, other (more appropriate) measures should be used, which would at the same time mean we can now have proper trade system.

Bots are already doing the sniping part. Try underpricing a commonly bought item and see how many messages you get. How many of them do you think are human?

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Perq wrote:

Does that perhaps indicate that you have higher tolerance to pointless activities? This argument is essentially I can go to a bank and make a transfer therefore remote banking is pointless.

The current situation only showed that this player interaction thingy doesn't help all that much, since bots can trade currency and other stuff. If anything, other (more appropriate) measures should be used, which would at the same time mean we can now have proper trade system.

Bots are already doing the sniping part. Try underpricing a commonly bought item and see how many messages you get. How many of them do you think are human?

Using real life examples isn't really applicable to game systems.


For example, is there any reason why a bank wouldn't want you to have remote banking? Not that I can think of. On the other hand there is a reason why GGG doesn't want automated trading.


Explain what your point is with this one "proper trade system"


Message bots that have humans behind them and bots that can snipe items are 2 different things. Regardless, in that case GGG needs to also combat against these style bots, but they are less impactful because you must be part of the interaction, whereas with an AH you dump and it goes and gets it. If anything your point here proves why an AH is terrible.

One has to remember the inspiration for this game. Which was D2. There are probably a lot of people who play PoE who did not play that game, but the end game in that was all about the grind. I do agree however, that some of these grinds for the challenges should be able to be completed with friends. I honestly haven't payed attention to whether I get credit or not for flipping influence in a friends map. So I wasn't even aware that you don't. You do get credit for killing the omnictec in a friends temple though, I do know that.